What looks good on paper, but is un-ideal, and perhaps dangerous, when implemented

[E8A4Nwbp]

Hello, forum,

TL;DR: What looks good on paper, but is bad in real life

I have been tasked to create a presentation on what I will, so I chose to explain three systems which may initially come across as ideal on paper, but may infact have disastrous effects when actually implemented, I only have two so far,

Utopias and Electric cars,

Have you anything to say which may be useful, I can't seem to find another widely know system/term which may also be commendable /suprising /useful /intriguing to address.

[ne555]

I read terrifying things about homeowner associations in yankieland

[E8A4Nwbp]

I read terrifying things about homeowner associations in yankieland

could you elaborate, that's potentially valuable

[mycuser]

Hi Astra,

I'm worried about dwindling non-renewable resources,
meaning those resources will not be there someday.

[E8A4Nwbp]

That is bad in real life, @mycuser however, that doesn't look good on paper, I need something that looks good on paper, bon dans papier sil vous plait, heh (tried using the little french I learned)

[Ganado]

Capitalism and democracy. Universal suffrage. Painkillers (opioids). That new framework that your co-worker decided to start using, which introduces 1000 concurrency bugs after it's been integrated into the entire system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-B1sink-nY

[jonnin]

higher taxes on successful people: drives them to another country, left with only unsuccessful people.

raising min wage: somewhere there is a cutoff .. so if it was 10, and there were people making 15, and everyone at 10 gets $4 more, but the guy at $15 gets nothing, and the cost of everything goes up to get the funds to pay higher wages, the $15 guy loses money and is now at poverty level (a reset, he had worked his way out of poverty). The guy at poverty also has to pay more, so his increase did nothing but bring others down, no gains.

disarming the population: this enable young, strong thugs with knives or swords to overpower the elderly, infirm, or weak. Two mass attacks with bladed weapons this week... gonna take up knives next? And then baseball bats? And then chair legs? Where does it end? Who defends us from a police state if the police are armed and we are not?

feel good green 'solutions' that are worse than what they replaced (ethanol and compact toxic lightbulbs, windmills that kill birds to make .1 of a kilowat in a 50 megawatt needs community, etc). Need good solutions and those pay for themselves... eg led lightbulbs, propane/electric cars...

I could go on all day... target rich environment.

[Ganado]

This thread is going to go to great places.

[E8A4Nwbp]

disarming the population: this enable young, strong thugs with knives or swords to overpower the elderly, infirm, or weak. Two mass attacks with bladed weapons this week... gonna take up knives next? And then baseball bats? And then chair legs? Where does it end? Who defends us from a police state if the police are armed and we are not?

However Armed or unarmed? Those utopias in northern Europe (i.e Norway, Sweden, Denmark etc) would say the latter.

Thank you, otherwise, @jonnin , I'm considering your disarming one, only I just merely need examples to back it up, there are many failed communist regimes, many dystopian utopias, but can I say the same for disarmed nations?

[MikeyBoy]

I would suggest "hijacking a forum thread to use as a soapbox for political rants" as an apposite topic...

[jonnin]

Those utopias in northern Europe
where they have strongarm assaults with clubs and knives on the weak. There are countless examples of these crimes, and their helpless (often)elderly victims. Or consider this: https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/sorry-despite-gun-control-advocates-claims-u-s-isnt-the-worst-country-for-mass-shootings/

which I have not fact-checked, grain of salt it but at least take a look. Its hard to fact check because you can change the rules on mass shootings (like how the media considers a shooting in the ghetto within a 1 mile radius of a school a school shooting) and its tedious trying to run numbers with various rule sets.

I am a libertarian. To your point, I did pick on the left there. Equalizing a bit..
- going into a trade war with no understanding of economics (this didnt even sound good on paper, did it)
- (both sides) giving tax $$ away to 'allies' when country is in debt
- destabilization of IRAQ to the tune of billions wasted trying to fix the screw ups
- removing environmental protections for short term gains

As I said ... I can do this stuff all day, thanks to the sad state usa is in last 30+ years.

[E8A4Nwbp]

I just can't bring myself to say that I'm safer in the US, than in Norway, So I'll have to pass disarming. I suppose an environment one would be easy and fun to present, so that's that, I'll discuss Utopias, "greener" alternatives and communism.

sad state usa is in last 30+ years.

Well, the rest of your lifetime may tell otherwise hopefully

[jonnin]

environmental is a good one, there are a solid 10+ examples where poorly thought out but well presented good intentions went straight to Hades, and many other counter-examples where good science and practical application was an overwhelming success. Google 'solar panel road' for another amusing one.

Well, the rest of your lifetime may tell otherwise hopefully
at this point, I plan to cash out before it gets significantly worse... one of the benefits of getting old :)

I just can't bring myself to say that I'm safer in the US, than in Norway
I would not say that either. Hopefully that is not what you thought I was saying.

[E8A4Nwbp]

The solar panel road was indeed foolish. Even more concerning is it's support from a politician. Speaking of green solutions otherwise, how do you think we should resolve the vehicle emmission issue? Electric cars unfortunately fall into the "good on paper, not ideal in reality" group

[jonnin]

for decades, even back to the early 80s, I have known people with propane powered vehicles on their farms (its not street legal due to explosion concern, which is bogus IMHO). Its not perfect, but its a LOT cleaner than liquid gas.

I believe electric or at least hybrid (hybrid propane?! could be!) cars are fine. My mom has had a prius for over 10 years and it is great. Its not really well suited for high speed cross USA travel, sure, but its fine for short trips (<200 miles) and city traffic. Not ideal, but using your brake to charge your battery is good. And the electric cars will get better. Our city has electric buses too, and its a LOT more clean (been behind both and the old diesel ones spew a fog of black crap every few min). Yes, the electricity probably came from coal, but that is a different problem for another day.

And these are possibly intermediate solutions, who knows what we will be able to make in 10, 20 years.

Edit: IMHO hydrogen is the way to go. Its plentiful and it burns perfectly clean (H +02 -> H2O) balance it out and its just water vapor if I remember it right. It goes boom if you wreck though.

Why do you think electric cars are not good in reality? There are not enough of them in use to say if they have had any effect on emissions, and they cost a bit more up front (saved in fuel later, proven to me, and I am a skeptic by nature). But I have no issue with them (whereas I hate ethanol)

[E8A4Nwbp]

Why do you think electric cars are not good in reality?

It's the production phase which I learned was not ideal

Why do ethanol look good on paper, but it detestable in reality?

[jonnin]

ethanol jacked up the price of food (most livestock eats corn, which became a rare item overnight). It burns dirty (maybe cleaner than gas but not clean, its worse than propane by a wide margin). It dissolves the hoses and stuff in older equipment and has filled our landfills with busted weed-eaters and lawn-mowers when accidentally used in them. It harms agricultural diversity approaches in farming, as corn is now king. It has no benefit: gas isnt any cheaper, cleaner to burn, or anything else environmental. There is an argument that we extended our supply of fossil fuels with it, but that is assuming we WANT to keep using those for a long time to come, which we don't.

Basically it did not solve anything.

I can't comment on how the cars are made vs other types, but that has to be the battery production. Could be the nasty chemistry involved or something. If that is the issue, its not just cars... so many things running fancy batteries now. I'd have to read up on it.

[helios]

It has no benefit: gas isnt any cheaper, cleaner to burn, or anything else environmental.

Sure it does: since ethanol is produced by fermenting carbohydrates produced via photosynthesis, it's carbon-neutral (i.e. the amount of carbon in the atmosphere before production and after consumption doesn't change). Ethanol is basically a method for distributing solar power chemically.

[jonnin]

even when carbon neutral (my understanding is the corn version isn't but my chemistry is rough and the internet is a mix of fact and fiction) it spews formaldehyde. Its total pollution from the corn version is almost 2x what fossil gas does when you total up all the nasty stuff (not just carbon).

I don't think its a lost cause. I just think that producing it with corn was a step backwards from everything we know.

If we learn to make it from co2 directly and efficiently, I would be all over that. Its doable, but only as a 'look what we did' science experiment so far.

[helios]

even when carbon neutral (my understanding is the corn version isn't but my chemistry is rough and the internet is a mix of fact and fiction)

From a purely chemical standpoint it's necessarily carbon-neutral. Plants don't perform alchemy as part of their metabolism, so the chemical elements of the atoms don't change. It's simply

CO2 + H2O + sunlight => O2 + carbohydrates =(fermentation)=> ethanol + etc
ethanol + O2 => CO2 + H2O + lots of heat

It's possible there are implementation details in the production or distribution methods that aren't carbon-neutral, but there's nowhere new carbon can from, unless you have a fusion reactor.

it spews formaldehyde. Its total pollution from the corn version is almost 2x what fossil gas does when you total up all the nasty stuff (not just carbon).

How formaldehyde compares to other pollutants or how much is produced, I have no idea. I was merely pointing out that ethanol is not entirely without benefits, at least in some aspects.