Hydrogen Booster
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I've been thinking about building a hydrogen booster for my car.
The idea behind it is you mount tanks of distilled water in your car, and run electrodes from the battery to the water. The water will undergo electrolysis and break down into hydrogen and oxygen, which are great combustive elements. Then you'd run a tube from the top of the tank into your engine intake, letting the gas flow into your engine, making it run a lot more efficiently (doubling gas mileage in some reports)
Most of this has been thought out in my head, so I'm still not sure what to use, so I need some ideas on possible materials.
And a way to distill water without buying an expensive distiller.
What do you guys think?
Any other chemistry geeks on the forum? :P
The idea behind it is you mount tanks of distilled water in your car, and run electrodes from the battery to the water. The water will undergo electrolysis and break down into hydrogen and oxygen, which are great combustive elements. Then you'd run a tube from the top of the tank into your engine intake, letting the gas flow into your engine, making it run a lot more efficiently (doubling gas mileage in some reports)
Most of this has been thought out in my head, so I'm still not sure what to use, so I need some ideas on possible materials.
And a way to distill water without buying an expensive distiller.
What do you guys think?
Any other chemistry geeks on the forum? :P
| And a way to distill water without buying an expensive distiller. |
closed account (3hM2Nwbp)
Modern vehicles are touchy when it comes to messing with the A/F ratio. I could see how this could potentially make gas mileage worse depending on how it's implemented. Basically, OBD-II compliant (anything since 1996 and many older makes) operate in two modes open-loop and closed-loop. Open loop is what the vehicle is running in when you first start it up. During this time, the oxygen sensors aren't used for fuel metering, but rather a calculated "guestimation" based on the other processor inputs (MAF/MAP, TPS, CTS, etc). In order for the vehicle to switch over to closed loop, you need to meet certain criteria:
* A certain amount of time must elapse
* A certain operating temperature (Coolant Temperature) must be reached
* The oxygen sensors must show a certain number of "Cross Counts"
Oxygen sensors:
Read the difference in oxygen content inside the sensor versus the exhaust gas. There are different types of O2 sensors, but I'll cover the most common in my area. If the reading from the O2 sensor is below 450 mV, the exhaust is lean (has excess oxygen from combustion). If the exhaust is right (has little oxygen), then the sensor is above 450mV. 0.45 volts is the target operating reading from the sensor, however it can't always hang at 0.45 because of obvious physical limiting conditions, so the processor meters the fuel to compensate for this reading.
* Below 450mV - Add Fuel
* Above 450mV - Reduce Fuel
The onboard processor has something called a fuel curve to help it know how much to add based on the multitude of inputs from the O2, TPS, ACT, MAP/MAF, CTS, and a bunch of other factors. Other things that affect the processor's fuel metering include:
* EVAP purging
* Knock sensor input (in some cases)
* The transmission control module
* System electrical demand
* Power steering
* The list goes on...
Adding another factor in that the processor doesn't understand could potentially cause it to make bad calculations (or even turn the engine light on, if the fuel trim numbers are too far off of the threshold). This is why many of the after-market modifications like superchargers or turbochargers come with a chip or a piggyback for the PCM to "lie" to it in order to compensate for the non-OEM modifications.
The moral of this story is: Modern cars are a bit more touchy than they were back in the day, make sure you know what you're getting yourself into. :P
That's not to say that you shouldn't play around with the idea though!
Source = ASE Certified Master Automotive Technician
*PS: Let me know if you have any other questions about this kind of stuff, it's the other half of my life. :P
**PPS: If you want to save gas, I'd get a motorcycle. I'm getting 65MPG on my Ninja :P
* A certain amount of time must elapse
* A certain operating temperature (Coolant Temperature) must be reached
* The oxygen sensors must show a certain number of "Cross Counts"
Oxygen sensors:
Read the difference in oxygen content inside the sensor versus the exhaust gas. There are different types of O2 sensors, but I'll cover the most common in my area. If the reading from the O2 sensor is below 450 mV, the exhaust is lean (has excess oxygen from combustion). If the exhaust is right (has little oxygen), then the sensor is above 450mV. 0.45 volts is the target operating reading from the sensor, however it can't always hang at 0.45 because of obvious physical limiting conditions, so the processor meters the fuel to compensate for this reading.
* Below 450mV - Add Fuel
* Above 450mV - Reduce Fuel
The onboard processor has something called a fuel curve to help it know how much to add based on the multitude of inputs from the O2, TPS, ACT, MAP/MAF, CTS, and a bunch of other factors. Other things that affect the processor's fuel metering include:
* EVAP purging
* Knock sensor input (in some cases)
* The transmission control module
* System electrical demand
* Power steering
* The list goes on...
Adding another factor in that the processor doesn't understand could potentially cause it to make bad calculations (or even turn the engine light on, if the fuel trim numbers are too far off of the threshold). This is why many of the after-market modifications like superchargers or turbochargers come with a chip or a piggyback for the PCM to "lie" to it in order to compensate for the non-OEM modifications.
The moral of this story is: Modern cars are a bit more touchy than they were back in the day, make sure you know what you're getting yourself into. :P
That's not to say that you shouldn't play around with the idea though!
Source = ASE Certified Master Automotive Technician
*PS: Let me know if you have any other questions about this kind of stuff, it's the other half of my life. :P
**PPS: If you want to save gas, I'd get a motorcycle. I'm getting 65MPG on my Ninja :P
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if you want to save gas and want to look more awesome than anyone you know, get a vintage Vespa SS 180. Ducati Desmo Yellow paint job. Also you may want to get some aviator goggles.
The energy from the battery necessary to break the water down into hydrogen and oxygen will always be more than the energy obtained by recombining them in combustion. Hence the energy from burning the hydrogen will not be enough to keep the battery charged. Read up on thermodynamics and heat engines.
Unless you buy an orange and a blue portal, position them in-line with each other with one of them above the other, pour water in the bottom one, and then let the water tip from one to the other. Then add a water wheel and you get infinite energy :)
@Luc Lieber
Wow, there's a lot more to vehicles than i imagined. That and i have the automotive experience of a third grader (none). I'll definitely be more careful, and do more research, when implementing my project.
I sure will! Much appreciated.
*dreams* That sounds heavenly.
Oh aperture science, what would we do without you?
EDIT: Wouldn't it take an infinite amount of energy to keep the portals open though? :S
Wow, there's a lot more to vehicles than i imagined. That and i have the automotive experience of a third grader (none). I'll definitely be more careful, and do more research, when implementing my project.
| Luc Lieber wrote: |
|---|
| Let me know if you have any other questions about this kind of stuff, it's the other half of my life |
| Luc Lieber wrote: |
|---|
| If you want to save gas, I'd get a motorcycle. I'm getting 65MPG on my Ninja |
| chrisname wrote: |
|---|
| buy an orange and a blue portal |
EDIT: Wouldn't it take an infinite amount of energy to keep the portals open though? :S
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I don't know, I actually don't know exactly why it doesn't work. I only know vaguely that it goes against the law of conservation of energy...
So it'd take all the energy generated just to keep the portals open. Curse you lawb conservation of energy!
Distilled water? Electrolysis requires slightly acidic water to be the most efficient actually...
That's what my Chemistry teacher said anyway...
That's what my Chemistry teacher said anyway...
You couldn't possibly get more energy from doing it that way, though. Somewhere along the line there has to be enough energy expenditure for it to balance out, or the laws of thermodynamics are broken.
@Veltas
The efficiency is increased by adding a salt, acid, or base (anything that's an electrolyte) to the water.
I'd add baking soda. I think it's considered a salt... And a base.
The efficiency is increased by adding a salt, acid, or base (anything that's an electrolyte) to the water.
I'd add baking soda. I think it's considered a salt... And a base.
I'm fairly sure sodium bicarbonate is a salt, yes. And it has a pH of 14, so it is also a base.
How can sodium bicarbonate have a pH of 14? It needs to have a concentration whilst dissolved in water for that to make sense. pKa would make more sense.
Also, chrisname, I didn't say anything about creating energy. Different chemicals have different chemical energy and different reactions have different enthalpies, but I didn't mention that either. I just said acidic conditions mean less electrical energy for chemical energy in hydrogen. That's because some electrical energy is merely used to ionise or whatever and acidic conditions mean less of that and more of the helpful conversions.
Urgh, hate chemistry.
Also, chrisname, I didn't say anything about creating energy. Different chemicals have different chemical energy and different reactions have different enthalpies, but I didn't mention that either. I just said acidic conditions mean less electrical energy for chemical energy in hydrogen. That's because some electrical energy is merely used to ionise or whatever and acidic conditions mean less of that and more of the helpful conversions.
Urgh, hate chemistry.
@ helios and Alrededor: You are both correct and this will always be the case regarding energy. The mistake that the OP made here is that he wants to tap the electricity off of the alternator, NOT the battery. Otherwise car batteries are what like 12V or 18V DC? What are you going to do with that?
@ Alrededor: Hydrogen and Oxygen do not combust when they combine to make water, this is not how fuel cells work if that's what you were thinking. The OP needs to actually dump the Hydrogen from the system if this is what they are planning, otherwise Water will form if there is any unspent gas which I believe would cause "knocking". I'm not great with cars and have never taken any automotive classes, but I'm pretty sure water in the engine is a bad thing.
@ OP: Again, I'm not great with cars but essentially what you are trying to do in the first stage is crack water and make watergas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_gas
I can tell you from first hand experiance that this requires A LOT of energy. Also I really don't think that electrolysis is fast enough to justify the modifications you would need to make to your engine. I would plan on generating the Oxygen outside of the engine and adding it some other way. As for water purification see the entry in the book I listed below, it's a great resource on the topic.
This thread reminds me of a great book I have a copy of called "The Golden Book of Chemistry Experiments": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Book_of_Chemistry_Experiments. It's what caught my interest in the subject. Anyone just starting out should give it a read, so long as you completley ignore pages 34 and 35, seriously I don't know how our parents survived to procreate but please just pretend those aren't even there.
@ Alrededor: Hydrogen and Oxygen do not combust when they combine to make water, this is not how fuel cells work if that's what you were thinking. The OP needs to actually dump the Hydrogen from the system if this is what they are planning, otherwise Water will form if there is any unspent gas which I believe would cause "knocking". I'm not great with cars and have never taken any automotive classes, but I'm pretty sure water in the engine is a bad thing.
@ OP: Again, I'm not great with cars but essentially what you are trying to do in the first stage is crack water and make watergas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_gas
I can tell you from first hand experiance that this requires A LOT of energy. Also I really don't think that electrolysis is fast enough to justify the modifications you would need to make to your engine. I would plan on generating the Oxygen outside of the engine and adding it some other way. As for water purification see the entry in the book I listed below, it's a great resource on the topic.
This thread reminds me of a great book I have a copy of called "The Golden Book of Chemistry Experiments": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Book_of_Chemistry_Experiments. It's what caught my interest in the subject. Anyone just starting out should give it a read, so long as you completley ignore pages 34 and 35, seriously I don't know how our parents survived to procreate but please just pretend those aren't even there.
closed account (3hM2Nwbp)
(Just some corrections)
*Alternator output is also ~14.4 volts in a healthy state, though a transformer wouldn't be too difficult to wire in.
*A small amount of water entering the combustion chambers would cause at worst, a misfire. If a large amount of water goes in, then it's possible to develop a hydro-lock(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrolock) Hydro-locks usually end up killing an engine.
*A spark-knock happens when the combustion chamber temperature rises to the point where the A/F mixture ignites before the piston reaches its target location. (That is, the spark plug didn't set the charge off, but rather a hot part of the combustion chamber itself did.)
*Alternator output is also ~14.4 volts in a healthy state, though a transformer wouldn't be too difficult to wire in.
*A small amount of water entering the combustion chambers would cause at worst, a misfire. If a large amount of water goes in, then it's possible to develop a hydro-lock(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrolock) Hydro-locks usually end up killing an engine.
*A spark-knock happens when the combustion chamber temperature rises to the point where the A/F mixture ignites before the piston reaches its target location. (That is, the spark plug didn't set the charge off, but rather a hot part of the combustion chamber itself did.)
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No problem I welcome the corrections. As I get older this stuff seems like the sort of thing I should have taken time to learn, not that I don't trust my mechanic but I always get funny looks when I can't keep up with the conversation.
Also, as a correction when I say "gas" above in the second paragraph I mean Hydrogen and Oxygen not gasoline fuel.
Also, as a correction when I say "gas" above in the second paragraph I mean Hydrogen and Oxygen not gasoline fuel.
| against the law of conservation of energy... |
Somtimes I just like to think, for a moment, "what law of conservation of energy/matter?".
I am such a HEATHEN!
@ king214: I don't get it. You do realise that these are actual laws in physics right?
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@Computergeek01
I think he was joking.
"What law of conservation of energy? ahahahah omg i'm so bad for ignoring the laws"
That's how I i interpreted it, at least.
I think he was joking.
"What law of conservation of energy? ahahahah omg i'm so bad for ignoring the laws"
That's how I i interpreted it, at least.
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