YARD (Yet Another Religious Debate)
I used to go to church every day when I was younger, I even went to church camp for about 7 summers in a row. During those times it was always just a kind of "obvious fact" that God existed. Why? Because my family, friends, and everyone I knew believed in God and I got preached to every Sunday.
Now that I am 20 I haven't gone to church in at LEAST 5 years and was never really a "religious" person. Even when I was younger it was just kind of "routine" I wasn't ever hardcore into religion, I just sort of believed it.
Anyway I am EXTREMELY interested in space and how our universe (and in turn, us) came to exist. I have been watching a ton of documentaries on Netflix about space science and the origins of the universe and it's really eye opening.
Religious fanatics claim that these "origin of the universe" theories can't possibly be true because if the big bang caused the formation of the universe, where did that original matter/energy to cause the big bang come from if not from God?
Atheists claim the exact opposite. They use the big bang, among other, theories to prove that there is no way that God could possibly have created anything. They claim the big bang created the universe and different processes over the course of billions of years caused our solar system to be created. Then comes the evolution theory on Earth to explain how we came to existence.
So what is my opinion? After watching all these space/science documentaries it has made it almost impossible to believe there IS a god but also made it almost impossible to believe there ISNT a god!
How could the vastness of our universe and the beauty of life and nature have possibly come from NOTHING? Even if the big bang theory is true, where did that original matter come from and how did the VERY VERY BEGINNING (if there is one) ever happen? HOW COULD THERE NOT BE A GOD??
How could the universe be in existence for billions of years with no obvious sign of any higher being doing ANYTHING to change it? How could we have discovered billions of light years of different areas of the universe but found no sign of a "Heaven", "Hell" or "God?" HOW COULD THERE POSSIBLY BE A GOD??
My conclusion? There is definitely a God out there, but not one of our religions have it even close to right. There is some type of "being" that started the chain of events that caused our universe, but there is no way this being is the traditional "God" we all know.
What are your thoughts?
Now that I am 20 I haven't gone to church in at LEAST 5 years and was never really a "religious" person. Even when I was younger it was just kind of "routine" I wasn't ever hardcore into religion, I just sort of believed it.
Anyway I am EXTREMELY interested in space and how our universe (and in turn, us) came to exist. I have been watching a ton of documentaries on Netflix about space science and the origins of the universe and it's really eye opening.
Religious fanatics claim that these "origin of the universe" theories can't possibly be true because if the big bang caused the formation of the universe, where did that original matter/energy to cause the big bang come from if not from God?
Atheists claim the exact opposite. They use the big bang, among other, theories to prove that there is no way that God could possibly have created anything. They claim the big bang created the universe and different processes over the course of billions of years caused our solar system to be created. Then comes the evolution theory on Earth to explain how we came to existence.
So what is my opinion? After watching all these space/science documentaries it has made it almost impossible to believe there IS a god but also made it almost impossible to believe there ISNT a god!
How could the vastness of our universe and the beauty of life and nature have possibly come from NOTHING? Even if the big bang theory is true, where did that original matter come from and how did the VERY VERY BEGINNING (if there is one) ever happen? HOW COULD THERE NOT BE A GOD??
How could the universe be in existence for billions of years with no obvious sign of any higher being doing ANYTHING to change it? How could we have discovered billions of light years of different areas of the universe but found no sign of a "Heaven", "Hell" or "God?" HOW COULD THERE POSSIBLY BE A GOD??
My conclusion? There is definitely a God out there, but not one of our religions have it even close to right. There is some type of "being" that started the chain of events that caused our universe, but there is no way this being is the traditional "God" we all know.
What are your thoughts?
This topic has been discussed thoroughly in these forums. Here are the relevant threads:
http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/lounge/24744/
http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/lounge/27941/
http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/lounge/30363/
Though, I think I have another thing to add... Now, let me see... Where did I put it?...
http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/lounge/24744/
http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/lounge/27941/
http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/lounge/30363/
Though, I think I have another thing to add... Now, let me see... Where did I put it?...
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Oh God, no! Not another one of these!
-Albatross
Use of the name of god in vain was in no way meant to offend any who might be offended by it. If you have been offended, sorry! :(
-Albatross
Use of the name of god in vain was in no way meant to offend any who might be offended by it. If you have been offended, sorry! :(
@Albatross
Haha yea I know, this has been so over-talked about it's almost annoying seeing these threads pop up. Basically more than a "God" debate, it's about how unbelievable I think the universe is. I've been watching these documentaries and it's just unbelievable how incredibly HUGE the universe is.
Light travels at 186,000 miles PER SECOND and the Milky Way alone is approx 100,000 light years in diameter. I guess the idea of a God just came up while I was thinking about what everyone thinks about, how did it all start.
@r0shi
I'm sure it had been but as I said above I was just really thinking about this stuff a lot lately and wanted to see if anyone else was interested. I'm 20 and don't know anyone interested in things like this. I feel like this is more of a blog, but I don't have one. ;) By the way, all three of those links you provided are archived so you can't reply to them anyway.
Haha yea I know, this has been so over-talked about it's almost annoying seeing these threads pop up. Basically more than a "God" debate, it's about how unbelievable I think the universe is. I've been watching these documentaries and it's just unbelievable how incredibly HUGE the universe is.
Light travels at 186,000 miles PER SECOND and the Milky Way alone is approx 100,000 light years in diameter. I guess the idea of a God just came up while I was thinking about what everyone thinks about, how did it all start.
@r0shi
I'm sure it had been but as I said above I was just really thinking about this stuff a lot lately and wanted to see if anyone else was interested. I'm 20 and don't know anyone interested in things like this. I feel like this is more of a blog, but I don't have one. ;) By the way, all three of those links you provided are archived so you can't reply to them anyway.
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One of the problems with the concept of a god is that even though it answers the unanswerable questions of the origins of the universe, those same unanswerable questions can still apply to God.
Q) How was the universe created?
A) "God created the universe"
Q) Okay, then how was God created?
A) The typical answer: "He always was"
The problem with that typical answer is it's a cop out. How could God have always been? If that was a suitable answer, couldn't that answer apply equally well to the universe? Why couldn't the universe always have been? Why replace one unknown with another? What's the point?
The way I see it, time must go infinitely backwards. I can't imagine any other way to conceptualize time. You can't say there was a point where time began... because what happened before that point?
We always want to ask "how did X start", but if time goes forever backwards, then the whole concept of having a "beginning" is flawed. Although that's a difficult concept to get your head around. At least it is for me.
Now to address specific points:
What makes you think there was ever nothing? The universe is just mass and energy. The only thing that's changed over time (that we can see) is how those things are arranged. Doesn't it seem more likely that over time, the universe just slowly changed and formed into what it is now?
Besides... the "God created it from nothing" scenario is a contradiction. Doesn't God count as "something"? Wouldn't his existence count at least as a form of energy? I mean if you have something (God), then it's not nothing.
In that event, even if a god did create the universe, he had to create it from at least himself. And if you want to say that... then that's just another way to describe energy and mass changing over time.
I guess it depends on what you consider a "being". Does it have to be alive? What is your definition for "alive"? Do we want to stretch these terms to where they lose their meaning?
A virus consumes fuel for its survival and does everything it can to spread itself as far as it can as fast as it can. We (humans) consider viruses to be alive.
A fire does the same thing, but would you consider a fire to be alive? Perhaps the giant balls of fire in the heavens are the Gods that created the universe? Are they alive? Do they have consciousness?
Personally I don't think so. But who can say for sure? You get that much energy and that much mass tangled together and going for as long as it's has and who can say what it really is?
But if we're willing to settle for that as our God, doesn't that kind of defeat the point of having a God? After all, what good is a tangible deity?
Q) How was the universe created?
A) "God created the universe"
Q) Okay, then how was God created?
A) The typical answer: "He always was"
The problem with that typical answer is it's a cop out. How could God have always been? If that was a suitable answer, couldn't that answer apply equally well to the universe? Why couldn't the universe always have been? Why replace one unknown with another? What's the point?
The way I see it, time must go infinitely backwards. I can't imagine any other way to conceptualize time. You can't say there was a point where time began... because what happened before that point?
We always want to ask "how did X start", but if time goes forever backwards, then the whole concept of having a "beginning" is flawed. Although that's a difficult concept to get your head around. At least it is for me.
Now to address specific points:
| TheNoobie wrote: |
|---|
| How could the vastness of our universe and the beauty of life and nature have possibly come from NOTHING? |
What makes you think there was ever nothing? The universe is just mass and energy. The only thing that's changed over time (that we can see) is how those things are arranged. Doesn't it seem more likely that over time, the universe just slowly changed and formed into what it is now?
Besides... the "God created it from nothing" scenario is a contradiction. Doesn't God count as "something"? Wouldn't his existence count at least as a form of energy? I mean if you have something (God), then it's not nothing.
In that event, even if a god did create the universe, he had to create it from at least himself. And if you want to say that... then that's just another way to describe energy and mass changing over time.
| There is some type of "being" that started the chain of events that caused our universe, but there is no way this being is the traditional "God" we all know. |
I guess it depends on what you consider a "being". Does it have to be alive? What is your definition for "alive"? Do we want to stretch these terms to where they lose their meaning?
A virus consumes fuel for its survival and does everything it can to spread itself as far as it can as fast as it can. We (humans) consider viruses to be alive.
A fire does the same thing, but would you consider a fire to be alive? Perhaps the giant balls of fire in the heavens are the Gods that created the universe? Are they alive? Do they have consciousness?
Personally I don't think so. But who can say for sure? You get that much energy and that much mass tangled together and going for as long as it's has and who can say what it really is?
But if we're willing to settle for that as our God, doesn't that kind of defeat the point of having a God? After all, what good is a tangible deity?
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| Albatross wrote: |
|---|
| Use of the name of god in vain was in no way meant to offend any who might be offended by it. If you have been offended, sorry! :( |
Don't worry about it. Real believers know that god is just a big pervert
and the whole creation is just the product of a big act of masturbation,
so, there should be no problem.
| TheNoobie wrote: |
|---|
| By the way, all three of those links you provided are archived so you can't reply to them anyway. |
You were meant to read them and learn :)
I like Disch's overall placement on the topic.
I don't feel like commenting on any part of it right now.
Also, I found what I was looking for.
For anyone who feels like being conv... err... given some food for thought, here it comes:
true story of a master
| How many of you are reading the hobbit? You got introduced to middle earth, a wizard, and an unlikely hero. That would be you. I'm really happy that you are doing this, because I want you to know that you're a troop that's just leaving the Shire and your adventures really do lie ahead and they are going to be momentous. But never fail; there is a wizard in your midst. And a wise elf. [...] This we do know. We know that all the emotions in the body always come back up to the frontal lobe to present themselves for some sort of approval. You never knew it before, but feelings are a plea for approval. That's what they are. Feelings are pleading for an approval. And once we get the approval is the moment we reconcile with the feeling. That's the "feel good" process. The redemption process. [...] So, what happens the day you tell the necromancer "you cannot pass"? What happens when your emotions are all over you, your past is all over you. What happens when you can't even communicate with your friends, because you don't know how to communicate with them, because the only thing you've ever talked them about was your victimization, your troubles, your problems, the difficulties you're having. What happens when you wake up one morning and you cannot communicate with them? Do you go back and try to communicate on that level, or do you just say "you cannot pass any more"? What do you have in common with them? What is your covenant? That master that stood on the bridge stood alone. Really alone. Defending the little people that have passed.That master stood alone. He didn't need anybody else. What kind of covenant do you have with these people? what kind of covenant do you have with each other? Is your communion with one another based upon your lack? Is it based upon your fear? Is it based upon your tragedies? Are you willing to give them up to stand alone? If you do, you deserve to stand on that bridge and say "you cannot pass". Otherwise, do not romantacize about this. Cause you're just one of those ones who passed to safety while someone else stood there and said "you're not gonna do it". How important is it to you to be loved by people around you? If that is a real need of yours, than you cannot stand on that bridge. You're not ready yet. |
You can get the whole thing here -> http://www.4shared.com/audio/s4rKYzpu/true_story_of_a_master.html
(I had to lower the quality because the original file was big - it's still quite big though - , but it's still audible)
EDIT: better link
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When I saw the topic, I thought it would be another <enter some language here> vs. C++ flamewar :D
THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE DEITY OUR ALMIGHTY LORD BEELZEBUB!
I don't see the need for a religious debate here at all...if you believe in god, fine, if you don't, fine, but what's the point in arguing about it?
I don't see the need for a religious debate here at all...if you believe in god, fine, if you don't, fine, but what's the point in arguing about it?
| rapidcoder wrote: |
|---|
| When I saw the topic, I thought it would be another <enter some language here> vs. C++ flamewar :D |
Aw... Sorry to disappoint you :/
| quirkyusername wrote: |
|---|
| if you believe in god, fine, if you don't, fine |
Sure, but don't forget that these debates are always a good opportunity to polish your brainwashing skills.
If I can throw my two pence into the mix, just as TheNoobie said I believe that traditional conceptualizations of what God is, are pretty far off the mark and whether we will ever be able to fully comprehend "God" is debatable.
I used to suffer from religious bullying when I was in school, so this topic is one that is rather close to my heart. I used to get people questioning my families beliefs so I spent a lot of my youth reading and learning from religious texts so as to be able to defend them should I need to and from that I've come across quite a few ideas.
One idea that really struck me was this: God is all energy and matter in existence (the "Super-soul"), and we are fragments of it albeit imperfect manifestations. We are born, live, die and are reborn (reincarnation), and the trails of each life teach us lessons to better ourselves (on the most part) and each step brings us closer to being one with the "Super-soul" (enlightenment).
But again we have to remember that belief (in a God or belief that God does not exist) is a very personal thing and no one has any right to tell anyone else that their way is better or that your ideas are nonsense.
I am a big believer of the "Many paths one summit" idea, that whether you are a Christian, Hindu, Muslim, or Atheist, we all are walking different paths, but the eventual destination is the same.
My father is very much of the atheist camp, one favourite quote of his was, "God is merely a bowl of sugar, to be taken from whenever you have a bitter taste in your mouth.", which I thought also made a lot of sense. He always said religion was the opium of the weak. I on the other hand could never bring myself to believe it, as the thought of oblivion awaiting us behind the pearly gates is a rather frightening one.
P.S: I am at work and dealing with a massive hangover so I apologies if this wasn't my most articulate post! :D
P.P.S: I found a nice quote and I thought I'd share it with you: "God has made different religions to suit different aspirations, times, and countries. All doctrines are only so many paths; but a path is by no means God Himself. Indeed, one can reach God if one follows any of the paths with whole-hearted devotion. One may eat a cake with icing either straight or sidewise. It will taste sweet either way.", Sri Ramakrishna.
I used to suffer from religious bullying when I was in school, so this topic is one that is rather close to my heart. I used to get people questioning my families beliefs so I spent a lot of my youth reading and learning from religious texts so as to be able to defend them should I need to and from that I've come across quite a few ideas.
One idea that really struck me was this: God is all energy and matter in existence (the "Super-soul"), and we are fragments of it albeit imperfect manifestations. We are born, live, die and are reborn (reincarnation), and the trails of each life teach us lessons to better ourselves (on the most part) and each step brings us closer to being one with the "Super-soul" (enlightenment).
But again we have to remember that belief (in a God or belief that God does not exist) is a very personal thing and no one has any right to tell anyone else that their way is better or that your ideas are nonsense.
I am a big believer of the "Many paths one summit" idea, that whether you are a Christian, Hindu, Muslim, or Atheist, we all are walking different paths, but the eventual destination is the same.
My father is very much of the atheist camp, one favourite quote of his was, "God is merely a bowl of sugar, to be taken from whenever you have a bitter taste in your mouth.", which I thought also made a lot of sense. He always said religion was the opium of the weak. I on the other hand could never bring myself to believe it, as the thought of oblivion awaiting us behind the pearly gates is a rather frightening one.
P.S: I am at work and dealing with a massive hangover so I apologies if this wasn't my most articulate post! :D
P.P.S: I found a nice quote and I thought I'd share it with you: "God has made different religions to suit different aspirations, times, and countries. All doctrines are only so many paths; but a path is by no means God Himself. Indeed, one can reach God if one follows any of the paths with whole-hearted devotion. One may eat a cake with icing either straight or sidewise. It will taste sweet either way.", Sri Ramakrishna.
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closed account (zb0S216C)
I'm a humanist. I personally believe that no gods exist. Now, many religious folk say that God and Satan exist. If this is true, how come they never physically manifest themselves in this world?
Moreover, I also believe that God and Satan were the product of one's imagination, possibly thousands of years ago. Thousands of years ago, much of Earth's population probably didn't know what most of the natural elements were which lead people to believe that they was some godly force or godly creation.
I've seen my fair share of these Q&As before. The answers always points to God in someway.
Of course, these're my opinions.
Moreover, I also believe that God and Satan were the product of one's imagination, possibly thousands of years ago. Thousands of years ago, much of Earth's population probably didn't know what most of the natural elements were which lead people to believe that they was some godly force or godly creation.
| Q) How was the universe created? A) "God created the universe" Q) Okay, then how was God created? A) The typical answer: "He always was" |
I've seen my fair share of these Q&As before. The answers always points to God in someway.
Of course, these're my opinions.
| This thread should be marked for deletion |
Why? It's remaining civil and is in the appropriate forum.
I titled and worded this thread very badly, because it wasn't ever intended to be a traditional religious debate. Really it was about how unbelievable the universe is and what everyones thoughts are on the universe and how it came into existence (which obviously presents God.)
As I said in my post - after being enlightened with so much information about space and time it makes it hard to believe there is a God AND hard to believe there isn't a God. The vastness of it is so much that our entire planet (even our solar system) is just an insignificant spec that makes no real impact in the grand scheme of the universe.
This leads to the question that EVERY person asks themselves at one point or another, where did it all come from? I just can't comprehend, and neither can any human, how our universe got formed or what was there before our universe. More than the formation of our universe though, I think the complexity of us as a species is even more incredible!
The whole idea just can't be comprehended so really there is no point in talking about it. However it's interesting to hear everyone else's thoughts and ideas to form a slightly better image in my head.
Here is an interesting theory I read...
http://www.universetoday.com/13630/what-was-before-the-big-bang-an-identical-reversed-universe/
Basically this theorizes that the universe has a curve on it that eventually causes it to just get sucked into itself and spit out an alternate (opposite) universe. This is very complicated to put into my own words and even on the link above it's hard to understand. Read the page above to get a better explanation. This would somewhat effectively solve how our universe is infinite.
@Disch
Laws of Conservation of Mass has been proven without a doubt and states that matter cannot be created nor destroyed. Where did the original matter come to trigger the big bang? That was my point.
As I said in my post - after being enlightened with so much information about space and time it makes it hard to believe there is a God AND hard to believe there isn't a God. The vastness of it is so much that our entire planet (even our solar system) is just an insignificant spec that makes no real impact in the grand scheme of the universe.
This leads to the question that EVERY person asks themselves at one point or another, where did it all come from? I just can't comprehend, and neither can any human, how our universe got formed or what was there before our universe. More than the formation of our universe though, I think the complexity of us as a species is even more incredible!
The whole idea just can't be comprehended so really there is no point in talking about it. However it's interesting to hear everyone else's thoughts and ideas to form a slightly better image in my head.
Here is an interesting theory I read...
http://www.universetoday.com/13630/what-was-before-the-big-bang-an-identical-reversed-universe/
Basically this theorizes that the universe has a curve on it that eventually causes it to just get sucked into itself and spit out an alternate (opposite) universe. This is very complicated to put into my own words and even on the link above it's hard to understand. Read the page above to get a better explanation. This would somewhat effectively solve how our universe is infinite.
@Disch
What makes you think there was ever nothing? The universe is just mass and energy. The only thing that's changed over time (that we can see) is how those things are arranged. Doesn't it seem more likely that over time, the universe just slowly changed and formed into what it is now? |
Laws of Conservation of Mass has been proven without a doubt and states that matter cannot be created nor destroyed. Where did the original matter come to trigger the big bang? That was my point.
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| Sure, but don't forget that these debates are always a good opportunity to polish your brainwashing skills. |
The main problem you people have is that you think about whether god is, without thinking what god is supposed to be. Surely we're not talking about an old man on a cloud.. are we? Now, if you take the definition lnk2019 posted (which is great, by the way), it appears that I'm god, you're god and my fridge is god too. In that case I 100% believe in god. But then religion often contradicts such statement..
Another point I should make is that
| Anyway I am EXTREMELY interested in space and how our universe (and in turn, us) came to exist. |
By the way, Disch, I'm not sure, but I have a feeling that viruses don't count as alive..
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@hamster
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. First of all read my post right before yours, I have no real interest in discussing whether or not God is real - I just worded my original post badly.
Please don't tell me that I'm "not interested" and I just "enjoy feeling smart" because that is completely ludicrous and you don't know me at all. I am extremely interested and "feeling smart" has nothing to do with it whatsoever.
Of course no matter what I find out about anything, I will ask myself why. That is human nature! Would you rather nobody bothered to find anything and we all still lived in caves and hunted animals for dinner?
I also know exactly what it is that I want to know - How did the universe and biological life come into existence? Will I ever find this answer in my lifetime? Most likely the answer is absolutely not a chance, but it doesn't hurt to think about these things as every human in history has before me.
Furthermore almost NONE of the technologies and discoveries of modern day were once thought impossible. Less than 100 years ago it was thought IMPOSSIBLE to ever reach the moon (much less different planets or solar systems.) So what if we had just GIVEN UP and said the answer to this problem CANT be solved, so why bother? That is a HORRIBLE outlook on science because nothing important would ever get done.
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. First of all read my post right before yours, I have no real interest in discussing whether or not God is real - I just worded my original post badly.
Please don't tell me that I'm "not interested" and I just "enjoy feeling smart" because that is completely ludicrous and you don't know me at all. I am extremely interested and "feeling smart" has nothing to do with it whatsoever.
Of course no matter what I find out about anything, I will ask myself why. That is human nature! Would you rather nobody bothered to find anything and we all still lived in caves and hunted animals for dinner?
I also know exactly what it is that I want to know - How did the universe and biological life come into existence? Will I ever find this answer in my lifetime? Most likely the answer is absolutely not a chance, but it doesn't hurt to think about these things as every human in history has before me.
Furthermore almost NONE of the technologies and discoveries of modern day were once thought impossible. Less than 100 years ago it was thought IMPOSSIBLE to ever reach the moon (much less different planets or solar systems.) So what if we had just GIVEN UP and said the answer to this problem CANT be solved, so why bother? That is a HORRIBLE outlook on science because nothing important would ever get done.
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| TheNoobie wrote: |
|---|
| Of course no matter what I find out about anything, I will ask myself why. That is human nature! Would you rather nobody bothered to find anything and we all still lived in caves and hunted animals for dinner? |
A lot of people still hunt animals for dinner, including me. ;)
As for religion, I'm an atheist that seeks to end all religion.
I will however accept the possibility that a god could exist, but it is simply not logical to me.
| Anyway I am EXTREMELY interested in space and how our universe (and in turn, us) came to exist. No you're not. You just enjoy feeling smart (and who could blame you for that). |
You're all driving me nuts. I hate to say it but that sums up much of this forum. There are too many teenagers on this damn forum now that just love to debate about things they have absolutely no experience with and with such vigor, be it God or some other topic.
| TheNoobie wrote: |
|---|
| after being enlightened with so much information about space and time it makes it hard to believe there is a God AND hard to believe there isn't a God. |
(If you in the theist camp) I think it's important to remember the most basic article of faith: There is a God is some form. and build on it. In the end until we cross over, we will never really know.
@hamsterman: Thanks! :D
Another nice quote, this ones from Kingdom of Heaven:
"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. I have seen too much religion in the eyes of too many murderers. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness."
@Browni
Yes, of course lots of people still hunt animals for dinner, but you get my point. ;D The point I was making is that nearly half of all major scientific discoveries were once thought impossible and if everyone thought like hamster then our society would be nowhere CLOSE to what it is now.
Anyway I really hope people will reroute this conversation a little bit from God. I want to hear more peoples opinions about the universe, space and time more so than God. Of course this is my own fault, for naming this thread YARD. :D
Yes, of course lots of people still hunt animals for dinner, but you get my point. ;D The point I was making is that nearly half of all major scientific discoveries were once thought impossible and if everyone thought like hamster then our society would be nowhere CLOSE to what it is now.
Anyway I really hope people will reroute this conversation a little bit from God. I want to hear more peoples opinions about the universe, space and time more so than God. Of course this is my own fault, for naming this thread YARD. :D
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