Homework posts
Pages: 12
All too often I see a post with "homework" in the title or the body of a message and I've been wondering why they even bother with this forum, I mean I get it, this forum is for helping people out but when it comes down to homework isn't that something that should be figured out by yourself?? Another thing as well is that why do people actually respond tho these posts, why are they doing someone elses homework? I mean isn't that part of being a grown adult is not doing homework (unless you have children and you help them out of course).
I'm currently not at the luxuary to call myself a "full-grown" adult - I am - alast - still a teenager - turning 20 this year (god I feel old typing this) and I have been studying C, C++, C# for about a year and a half (maybe less) and have a growing urge to learn and teach (actually one thing I said to myself is that once I learnt a langauge to a respecful level I would try and help as many people as possible, but helping people and doing a guys homework are two completly different things).
I want to know if anyone actually agree's or is this part of a rebelious programmer stage and if anyone is sick as I am about people asking us for help with their learning experiance.
I'm currently not at the luxuary to call myself a "full-grown" adult - I am - alast - still a teenager - turning 20 this year (god I feel old typing this) and I have been studying C, C++, C# for about a year and a half (maybe less) and have a growing urge to learn and teach (actually one thing I said to myself is that once I learnt a langauge to a respecful level I would try and help as many people as possible, but helping people and doing a guys homework are two completly different things).
I want to know if anyone actually agree's or is this part of a rebelious programmer stage and if anyone is sick as I am about people asking us for help with their learning experiance.
closed account (3hM2Nwbp)
I think that the fault in most cases is that universities aren't exposing the students to computer science concepts in the correct order, or not at an in-depth enough level. (IE. not allowing a student to take a C++ course if he or she hadn't successfully completed a pseudo-code concepts course prior). So many people that post for help don't understand program flow or the basic control structures, all of which should have been mastered before even thinking about typing a line of C++.
*Edit - either that, or the students cheated their way through the prerequisite courses the same way they're trying to cheat through the ones they're taking now. ( http://cplusplus.com/forum/general/36775/ )
*Edit - either that, or the students cheated their way through the prerequisite courses the same way they're trying to cheat through the ones they're taking now. ( http://cplusplus.com/forum/general/36775/ )
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You know I think you might be right there - I enlisted on a computer science course and I have been learning C# (I'm in the first year of the course) and to be honest I am so glad that I learnt all of it before I touched the univeristy with a stick because I would be so lost without my understanding.
Most of the time (and I'm not trying to sound big-headed here) I end up helping my fellow students because they have not understood what has been going on so far and we have just begun o-o programming and it's flying way over their heads. I feel sorry for them I really do but I can't carry them through the course as well as myself, I can offer mediocre advice - at best!
Most of the time (and I'm not trying to sound big-headed here) I end up helping my fellow students because they have not understood what has been going on so far and we have just begun o-o programming and it's flying way over their heads. I feel sorry for them I really do but I can't carry them through the course as well as myself, I can offer mediocre advice - at best!
| either that, or the students cheated their way through the prerequisite courses the same way they're trying to cheat through the ones they're taking now. |
Heh. If I had to guess, it's because they just BS'd their way through most of their assignments, and then they get to a part that they can't, so they have to ask "fre stuf plz!?"
I don't see why we should treat people who need assistance with their homework any differently to any other poster, as long as they have made a genuine attempt and post their code to show it then why deem them less worthy of help?
If they just post the title and description of their homework however then that's a different matter, they should get no help.
If they just post the title and description of their homework however then that's a different matter, they should get no help.
I agree with quirkyusername. They need to demonstrate that they've spent time on the assignment and aren't simply looking for freebies. And even then, typically I don't just hand out solutions. If they ask what's wrong with the code, I'll point out the line number and why it's wrong, but I won't go so far as to provide the solution (in most circumstances). If they ask how to fix something, I'll give an english answer, not a C++ answer.
I think of this site as "24x7 office hours" and I try to play the role of teacher when answering.
I think of this site as "24x7 office hours" and I try to play the role of teacher when answering.
Well see, I don't see people who have made an attempt as a problem, but the problem is - how do you differentiate between a person who has attempted the excersice and someone who is just asking for help because they don't feel like doing it, that is where my problem lies.
I liked your answer "jsmith" this forum does boil down to a 24/7 class room and anyone who does help - will help, but only if the student is willing to learn - but again can we differentiate the people who actually want to learn or someone who is looking for someone else to do their homework?
I could agree that if a homework post does show it's ugly little head again then what should happen is an english answer - not a stright up answer - this way the person can develop and learn something in the process. But some times (and admittedly I have done this myself) people post a language appropriate answer (trying not to use the word C++ here but this is a C++ forum, mostly) answer to a question, I'm not saying that this is a bad thing, sometimes it is a good thing because some problems go beyond saying "Your problem lies in line number 9", some problems require demonstration.
I liked your answer "jsmith" this forum does boil down to a 24/7 class room and anyone who does help - will help, but only if the student is willing to learn - but again can we differentiate the people who actually want to learn or someone who is looking for someone else to do their homework?
I could agree that if a homework post does show it's ugly little head again then what should happen is an english answer - not a stright up answer - this way the person can develop and learn something in the process. But some times (and admittedly I have done this myself) people post a language appropriate answer (trying not to use the word C++ here but this is a C++ forum, mostly) answer to a question, I'm not saying that this is a bad thing, sometimes it is a good thing because some problems go beyond saying "Your problem lies in line number 9", some problems require demonstration.
closed account (zb0S216C)
What I don't get is, why do people join programming courses, only to cheat their way through it?
| I don't see why we should treat people who need assistance with their homework any differently to any other poster, as long as they have made a genuine attempt and post their code to show it then why deem them less worthy of help? |
I'd have to say I agree with this one.
As long as they have at least tried a little bit. (then again if you abandon a project at the first sign of trouble perhaps you should find a different career...)
| as long as they have made a genuine attempt |
Yeah, well that's the problem. Some people don't...
I am Bulgarian. The Bulgarian education facilities have idealistic view on the subject of cheating. You are supposed to work alone and achieve the results yourself. But in practice, you can not enforce that. Honest folk suffer from the harder problems.
What I am saying is this. Not helping someone is not solving the problem of education. It may be noble, but the final result is that the person gets their "assistance" somewhere else. It is not even about the effort they have invested. Some people put actual effort to learn, but can not learn, and then they still have to cheat. And most graduates I know end up relying on no more than memorization skills in their job. No algorithms, no architecture, no depth.
I want to help the people that ask to understand, how I have derived the solution. I don't want to pursue impossible ideals (in this case :). I just hope that the person will learn a skill. I hope that they will observe my thinking method, not just peruse the result.
Regards
P.S. I am also uneasy with the forum turning into homework factory. I came here to learn advanced C++ stuff. I rely on the occasional post that makes me happy.
What I am saying is this. Not helping someone is not solving the problem of education. It may be noble, but the final result is that the person gets their "assistance" somewhere else. It is not even about the effort they have invested. Some people put actual effort to learn, but can not learn, and then they still have to cheat. And most graduates I know end up relying on no more than memorization skills in their job. No algorithms, no architecture, no depth.
I want to help the people that ask to understand, how I have derived the solution. I don't want to pursue impossible ideals (in this case :). I just hope that the person will learn a skill. I hope that they will observe my thinking method, not just peruse the result.
Regards
P.S. I am also uneasy with the forum turning into homework factory. I came here to learn advanced C++ stuff. I rely on the occasional post that makes me happy.
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As far as the argument about universities not covering the material in an appropriate order, I have to break character and side with the schools on this one. Everything you need to know about the basic structure of C++ is covered somewhere between Algebra and Calculus, file directories and stuff like that should be picked up in high school\primary school or else they are a few hours with a computer away from knowing inside and out. The point is that by the time a student hits college, which for a majority is where they take their first programming class, the ground work is already set most just don't realise it or they aren't able to extrapolate those ideas to the next level. There is very little hope for the later in regards to learning C++ EDIT: IMPORTANT PART: This second group makes up the majority of the population.
There are SO many arguments running through my head on both sides of this debate. But I guess what it comes down to is like the OP, I told myself that once I got a handle on this language that I would help people who needed it. Most of the time I'm not even concerned with them learning the language, I can tell by their posts that they are here because the keyboarding class was full and they needed X more credit hours on their schedule to fill a quota. These people don't care to learn C++ anymore then I care to learn how to properly cite my work in MLA format, I for one am not offended by this. The difference is that it is much harder to fake your way through C++ then it is most other things. So if I can give these people enough to make it to their exam then I've done them a huge favor.
As for effort, I've had to pry code out of people with a crowbar. I honestly think that it would have been easier for me to get them to send me their credit card number and mothers madian name; but I still insist on that sample before I'll give them anything in return.
There are SO many arguments running through my head on both sides of this debate. But I guess what it comes down to is like the OP, I told myself that once I got a handle on this language that I would help people who needed it. Most of the time I'm not even concerned with them learning the language, I can tell by their posts that they are here because the keyboarding class was full and they needed X more credit hours on their schedule to fill a quota. These people don't care to learn C++ anymore then I care to learn how to properly cite my work in MLA format, I for one am not offended by this. The difference is that it is much harder to fake your way through C++ then it is most other things. So if I can give these people enough to make it to their exam then I've done them a huge favor.
As for effort, I've had to pry code out of people with a crowbar. I honestly think that it would have been easier for me to get them to send me their credit card number and mothers madian name; but I still insist on that sample before I'll give them anything in return.
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@Computergeek01
To be hoonest I did computing as a college subject and we only touched upon programming, we did it in VBA - Visual Basic for Applications (basically a macro recorder) - it's only because I took interest in the subject matter that I actually went out and researched into it and gained knowledge, so I must say that maybe your right but not all colleges offer that sort of course.
I must admit that there are many arguments for and against what I said, i know this, that is why I posted it here, because it is so trivial, because I want to know other peoples opinion on these types of post , whether we want to be answering real life issues or doing some guys homework for him.
This I will agree on I just don't get why people think it is a good idea to enrol on these courses and then try and cheat their way through (maybe cheat isn't the right word to use there but you get my point), it would be like me enrolling on a geographics course, I have no intrest in the subject matter and would probably get lost very quickly, would I ask for help? Yes, would I ask someone else to do some/most of the work for me? Of course not because then I wouldn't learn anything.
To be hoonest I did computing as a college subject and we only touched upon programming, we did it in VBA - Visual Basic for Applications (basically a macro recorder) - it's only because I took interest in the subject matter that I actually went out and researched into it and gained knowledge, so I must say that maybe your right but not all colleges offer that sort of course.
I must admit that there are many arguments for and against what I said, i know this, that is why I posted it here, because it is so trivial, because I want to know other peoples opinion on these types of post , whether we want to be answering real life issues or doing some guys homework for him.
| What I don't get is, why do people join programming courses, only to cheat their way through it? |
This I will agree on I just don't get why people think it is a good idea to enrol on these courses and then try and cheat their way through (maybe cheat isn't the right word to use there but you get my point), it would be like me enrolling on a geographics course, I have no intrest in the subject matter and would probably get lost very quickly, would I ask for help? Yes, would I ask someone else to do some/most of the work for me? Of course not because then I wouldn't learn anything.
My school teaches programming in Java and Python, and it appears they only mark based on whether the program compiles/loads, functions properly, and does the right thing. I didn't take these courses because my father said I can't take things I'd easily get 100% in. Actual style and efficiency are passed over completely. And on top of it the cheating that goes on is ridiculous. When I showed a student in this program my Tetris implementation, he said "Where did you get this code?", the nerve of him! He was dumbfounded when I told him I had typed personally every one of the ~600 lines of code.
| I didn't take these courses because my father said I can't take things I'd easily get 100% in. |
| And on top of it the cheating that goes on is ridiculous. |
Regards
@simoenz
lol
I haven't taken a programming class yet, and I think I might. Being completely self taught is... cool and all. But I can see the value of a course. (If I do, don't expect more homework posts [between you and I, I've done most of the homework already] =D)
My only question is: does it take the fun out of it? I really enjoy programming, for the power and the possibilities, it seems if I'm forced to code, it would bring the whole cause down a couple notches? I don't know, maybe i'm still nuts.
lol
I haven't taken a programming class yet, and I think I might. Being completely self taught is... cool and all. But I can see the value of a course. (If I do, don't expect more homework posts [between you and I, I've done most of the homework already] =D)
My only question is: does it take the fun out of it? I really enjoy programming, for the power and the possibilities, it seems if I'm forced to code, it would bring the whole cause down a couple notches? I don't know, maybe i'm still nuts.
| ultifinitus wrote: |
|---|
| does it take the fun out of it? |
IMO, the formal education tries to push you forward to be a technocrat (not much "soft skills" or whatever). For me, it brought about two things to my character: uncontrollable urge to proliferate my knowledge, and paranoid fear of ignorant designs.
Regards
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It baffles me sometimes seeing posts for homework requests where people want help cause they don't even know how to start. I have to question how they got to this point in their class in the first place. I don't have time to help someone who doesn't have time to help themselves. I consider programming to be kinda like a good road trip, it's not just the destination its the trip getting there. I don't think you could enjoy programming if you didn't feel similar in some way.
However, I also knew someone once who wanted to be a professional programmer and so enrolled in a C++ course with me. Afterwards I learned that this person who was taking calculus had absolutely no concept of a variable and that variable "A" could be "anything" they wanted. They couldn't get past that one simple thing because in their mind it HAD to be a specific value. In that case I can understand the difficulty some people have.
However, I also knew someone once who wanted to be a professional programmer and so enrolled in a C++ course with me. Afterwards I learned that this person who was taking calculus had absolutely no concept of a variable and that variable "A" could be "anything" they wanted. They couldn't get past that one simple thing because in their mind it HAD to be a specific value. In that case I can understand the difficulty some people have.
A few points, as I am one of those college students.
First of all there are many of us who are taking these courses to better our lives in the long run besides the fact that analytical problem solving is more than enjoyable. Some of us did not come to college right out of High School with all of the mathematics needed and so my points are this:
Whenever I post a problem or code difficulty I do attempt to ask for an explanation of the concept I am stumped on. I would never consider having someone else do my work for me. Sometimes you just come to a bump in the road y-know? I'm sure more advanced programmers ask for ideas or help form colleagues - is that cheating your boss or client?
Agree completely that the colleges should have pre-requisites that match the course work even for a Tech Certificate. I had no idea what C++ entailed until I took my first VB course. The next semester I enrolled in some math classes.
When the concepts are taught, they are taught from A-Z so to speak. The concept of a variable should in no way require higher mathematics skills. These concepts speak for themselves.
Since there are so many mid-life career changers out here, 'Express' classes and the like should be limited to very high standard pre-requisites and you should not receive high grades because you tried. you should come away from any class with a full UNDERSTANDING of the concepts - if NOT - YOU are being cheated.
I want to thank those who have helped me to understand certain concepts. It is difficult to help when it is homework. I get that. When someone is really struggling and has made an effort but is just not able to put together the concepts taught in the correct order, why make us flail around like a fish out of water??? Sometimes the program calls for a work around of a concept not taught yet! Frustration and hair pulling come to mind.
So...Thank you for saving me from balding! I will still come here to learn from those who are willing to teach.
First of all there are many of us who are taking these courses to better our lives in the long run besides the fact that analytical problem solving is more than enjoyable. Some of us did not come to college right out of High School with all of the mathematics needed and so my points are this:
Whenever I post a problem or code difficulty I do attempt to ask for an explanation of the concept I am stumped on. I would never consider having someone else do my work for me. Sometimes you just come to a bump in the road y-know? I'm sure more advanced programmers ask for ideas or help form colleagues - is that cheating your boss or client?
Agree completely that the colleges should have pre-requisites that match the course work even for a Tech Certificate. I had no idea what C++ entailed until I took my first VB course. The next semester I enrolled in some math classes.
When the concepts are taught, they are taught from A-Z so to speak. The concept of a variable should in no way require higher mathematics skills. These concepts speak for themselves.
Since there are so many mid-life career changers out here, 'Express' classes and the like should be limited to very high standard pre-requisites and you should not receive high grades because you tried. you should come away from any class with a full UNDERSTANDING of the concepts - if NOT - YOU are being cheated.
I want to thank those who have helped me to understand certain concepts. It is difficult to help when it is homework. I get that. When someone is really struggling and has made an effort but is just not able to put together the concepts taught in the correct order, why make us flail around like a fish out of water??? Sometimes the program calls for a work around of a concept not taught yet! Frustration and hair pulling come to mind.
So...Thank you for saving me from balding! I will still come here to learn from those who are willing to teach.
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