AHHHHHH!!!!Hackers!!!!

[clover leaf]

I have been receiving messages from Norton that I have tracker cookies on me but I set Firefox to block all cookies and I don't even use Internet Explorer or anything else! And my computer is blocking me off from my folders! What's happening!? HELP!!!

[firedraco]

AFAIK, tracker cookies just record that you went to a specific website.

[clover leaf]

I know but I deleted them anyway! I'm a security freak okay!I delete anything with the words tracker, IP adress or any word like that! I even tried to make an anti virus! You can help me with that at http://cplusplus.com/forum/beginner/24133/.Oh crap now I sound like a commercialer....
only with a brain JOKING.
Hey what do you mean by AFAIK any way?

[blackcoder41]

AFAIK means "As far as I know"

And your post here http://cplusplus.com/forum/beginner/24133/ is already answered by helios.

[Albatross]

Calm down. All tracker cookies CAN do is indicate that you have visited a certain site. They can't (AFAIK) contain any information that could radically compromise your computer's security. I think Firefox might let those in for... simple reasons...

Why would Norton say you have tracker cookies? Weird... are you sure you read the message properly?

And your computer blocking you off from your folders could be a result of your paranoia and you (this is just a hypothesis) setting the permissions to ridiculous levels.

And... um... hackers had probably nothing to do with it. They don't waste their time doing cheap things like breaking into innocent people's personal computers. The special term they have for those people who do is "kiddies".

-Albatross

[blackcoder41]

I totally agree with Albatross. Hackers won't even bother to hack my computer, maybe except my jealous classmate. Also I don't believe in hacking, I believe most hacking crimes happen due to inside job or something like that.

[Disch]

Antivirus programs are just as bad as any virus. I wouldn't let Norton anywhere near my computer.


Safe web surfing is mostly common sense. It basically comes down to 2 simple rules:

1) Don't download and run questionable programs
2) Don't download and install questionable browser plugins/extensions.

As long as you keep that in mind you'll be fine.

[chrisname]

@Disch,
Maybe; but I would it's worth having something like CLAM Anti-Virus -- it's a GPL antivirus program. I would take that to mean less false-positives, less expenses and less annoying messages about paying and renewing subscriptions and less forced upgrades plus more free video RAM, at the price of slightly less "thorough" scanning.

[Albatross]

@Disch:

Actually, that might be true about safe web surfing, but that doesn't ensure safety. Viruses can be passed through the SMTP and POP protocols (along with various others) and some execute the moment the data is even read. To be sure, have SOME anti-virus software. I recommend Kaspersky, although I've heard some good things about free programs as well.

Antivirus programs are just as bad as any virus.

Proof required for the set of all popular anti-virus software programs (Norton, Kaspersky, NOD 32, AVG, etc...)
Of course, if you are tricked into downloading a malware package, then yes.


-Albatross

[Disch]

Viruses can be passed through the SMTP and POP protocols (along with various others)

Yes, but they don't execute until you run them.

and some execute the moment the data is even read.

No they don't. This is not possible unless your client is completely retarded and executes them... which may have been the case 10 years ago, but nowadays you'd be hardpressed to find a client that blindly runs executables off the web unless said client is malicious.

There's a clear difference between a program being on your computer, and a program running on your computer. You can download malicious programs and save them to your computer all day and you'll be totally fine as long as you don't run any of them.

To be sure, have SOME anti-virus software.

If you don't know how to browse safe. Then yes, you probably should have some.

If you do, then virus scanners are a waste of your time, your PC's resources, and possibly your money.

Safe browsing habits seem like common sense to me, but not everyone has them.

Proof required for the set of all popular anti-virus software programs

I was specifically referring to Norton. My parents have Norton:

- their computers run at about 60% the speed they should
- their computers stall (and crash) regularly
- I don't think it ever actually found any viruses

(yes, I attribute the first 2 to Norton -- as the problems started the moment they asked me to install it for them)

AVG is better, but it still isn't worth its weight.

The whole idea of something running silently in the background, burning RAM, HD space, and CPU time as it watches what you're doing and potentially interrupts you... sounds like a virus, right? Except that's what virus scanners do. Funny how it's so easy to get them confused.

Anyway I've been virus scanner free on my computers for the past 8 years and have had zero virus related problems.

[Albatross]

This is not possible unless your client is completely retarded and executes them

I am willing to accept that. However what if the user opens the file? Remember, you CAN spoof e-mail addresses to make them look legitimate, and the files can be disguised to look like otherwise harmless files, and that can fool a lot of people.

If you [know how to browse safely], then virus scanners are a waste of your time

There have to be a few cases in which even with very safe browsing habits a piece of malicious code could still exploit a vulnerability and do malicious stuff.

- their computers run at about 60% the speed they should
- their computers stall (and crash) regularly
- I don't think it ever actually found any viruses

Then get them a better AV program.

Bottom line: NEVER try to convince someone to go without an anti-virus program unless you're 128% certain they have the common sense for it. If your experiences without one are positive, then fine, in fact good. But... don't...

-Albatross







EDIT: Where did all this whitespace come from?!?

[Disch]

Albatross wrote:

However what if the user opens the file? Remember, you CAN spoof e-mail addresses to make them look legitimate, and the files can be disguised to look like otherwise harmless files, and that can fool a lot of people.

If you:

1) Don't recognize a spoofed email address
2) Don't notice that the file you're running has an extention that indicates it's an executable file (.exe, .bat, .scr, etc)
3) Ignore any warnings that the OS/Mail client is giving you about running the file
4) Decide to open the file anyway

Then you don't have safe web browing habits and you need a virus scanner.

But again.. all of these seem like common sense to me. Only a fool, or someone who doesn't know any better would run unknown attachments. Of course a large number of internet users really don't know any better and/or are fools.

There have to be a few cases in which even with very safe browsing habits a piece of malicious code could still exploit a vulnerability and do malicious stuff.

There have been more cases where a virus scanner was powerless to stop a virus. Virus scanners are just as likely to have vulnerabilities as any other program. Etc.

EDIT: Not to mention antivirals can't even stop viruses until the virus already exists and the antiviral maintainers have time to identify and respond to it. So even if you have an antiviral and update it religiously, you're still at the mercy of the latest cutting-edge virus that someone just made. Antivirals are really only good at stopping the viruses nobody falls for anymore /EDIT

I guess its true that you're never 100% safe. Unless you don't have a net connection at all, and don't use any external media.

Then get them a better AV program.

The point was the program didn't do anything. If it was finding and removing viruses, okay. But it didn't. They never did anything that would have gotten them a virus.

They ended up dropping hundreds of dollars to get a computer that was crippled all the time. Norton didn't do anything of value.

Sure they could've saved their money and used a different virus scanner. I agree with you that it would've been better. I was particularly showing my disguist for Norton with that point.

But would a different virus scanner be any more useful? Sure it may have crippled them less... but it still would have been just as useless.

NEVER try to convince someone to go without an anti-virus program unless you're 128% certain they have the common sense for it. If your experiences without one are positive, then fine, in fact good. But... don't...

I guess I expect people on a C++ forum to be computer savvy enough to know basic things about web browsing.

It really is this simple:

me wrote:

1) Don't download and run questionable programs
2) Don't download and install questionable browser plugins/extensions.

If you follow those 2 simple rules, you'll be just fine.


My point is... are antivirus programs worth their weight? Even many of the lightweight ones are bloated and intrusive. Is it worth running something like that all the time just so that you might be covered in the event you do something stupid? I say no. I say the odds of getting a virus are so low that you'd have to be a masochist to let an antiviral suck away at your PC's performance.

<insert absurd hyperbole here about how people don't need programs to prevent them from doing other stupid things like deleting all of their files, or putting magnets next to their HD>

[Albatross]

My point is... are antivirus programs worth their weight?

Admittedly, no. That doesn't mean they're worthless, though.

1) Don't recognize a spoofed email address

I don't believe that any large modifications of SMTP have been implemented, and SMTP didn't originally include authentication protocols.

The point was the program didn't do anything.

Doesn't Norton scan files before they're opened to check for viruses?

I guess I expect people on a C++ forum to be computer savvy enough to know basic things about web browsing.

Sadly there are a lot of people who are just taking CS at their school and who sign up to this forum because they are stuck on a program, but don't know how to use a computer safely (Rule #1: typedef Facebook unsafe).

-Albatross

[Disch]

Admittedly, no. That doesn't mean they're worthless, though.

Fair enough. Point taken.

I don't believe that any large modifications of SMTP have been implemented, and SMTP didn't originally include authentication protocols.

I don't mean like the program recognizes that the address was spoofed. I mean a human being seeing who the email claims to be from and compares it to the body of the email which is written nothing like that person.

I get these emails all the time at work. Some of them even claim to be from me. It's really, really easy to spot.

Doesn't Norton scan files before they're opened to check for viruses?

Yes. And to my knowledge, it never found any.

Though granted the Norton I use at work finds stuff all the time in email attachments. But they're all emails that didn't make it through the junk filter and were obviously malicious.

Sadly there are a lot of people who are just taking CS at their school and who sign up to this forum because they are stuck on a program

I would think that even first year CS students would be savvy enough to recognize it. People who are interested in working with computers and learning about them can surely spot bogus emails when they see them.

[Albatross]

I mean a human being seeing who the email claims to be from and compares it to the body of the email which is written nothing like that person.

That's a definite and fairly high probability. Point taken.

But they're all emails that didn't make it through the junk filter and were obviously malicious.

...actually I'm quite tempted to test Norton's ability to detect malicious code given a pool of files, because I can see your safe-browsing skills getting in the way of any malware. Or I could check some other peoples' reviews.

I would think that even first year CS students would be savvy enough to recognize [bogus e-mails].

For some colleges, a year or two of CS is required for either graduation or admittance (every time I type CS, I try to avoid thinking about C#). Some people will just run the executable without paying any attention to the e-mail or the contents just to get it out of the way. I had the results of a survey flying around somewhere...

-Albatross

[helios]

Regardless of all this, I think we can all agree that OP shouldn't be let anywhere near a computer.

[Albatross]

Em... the OP has done some questionable things on this forum and... sorry clover leaf, but you are not the best person with a computer... however is there any other reason that we wish to put down as text? Telling someone that they shouldn't be let near a computer is a very serious statement, and I don't think what he's done on this forum is sufficient to justify that statement... or is there something I've missed? Does this have something to do with it?

clover leaf wrote:

I delete anything with the words tracker, IP adress or any word like that!

EDIT: 10:30 grammar is not pretty.

-Albatross

[helios]

[I] don't think what he's done on this forum is sufficient to justify that statement

But think about what he may have done outside.

I don't think it's so outrageous. Just like there's a lot of people who aren't allowed to drive, there's a lot of people who shouldn't be allowed to use computers; or at least not computers capable of transferring information in any way, which still leaves a lot of usability.

[Albatross]

Just like there's a lot of people who aren't allowed to drive, there's a lot of people who shouldn't be allowed to use computers; or at least not computers capable of transferring information in any way, which still leaves a lot of usability.

Pardon my grammar, earlier.

Driving can cost lives, easily, without effort. Make a mistake reflex-wise and you can cost someone their life. Posting that kind of stuff on a forum rarely costs lives. What could he have done?

-Albatross

[helios]

It costs... Mental health.
But seriously speaking, lack of computer proficiency can have high costs. Typical situation: user gets an instant message from a friend: "check out my pictures!!!11" and a file attached. The file is a program inside an archive, but since this user hides extensions and the program's icon happens to look like a picture, they don't realize it's not. Now this user's computer is yet another zombie that will help DDoS other computers on the Internet.