Computer Science Education
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I'm curious what everyone's opinion is on the matter. I've recently had several conversations with people regarding Bachelors in CS, particularly in reference to online learning. Three programs have been discussed and their pros and cons.
1. Traditional Bachelors in Computer Science.
2. Bachelors in Computer Information Systems.
3. Bachelors in Game Programming/Simulation.
The Game Programming/Simulation degree seems to be an issue for some people. For example, take the below program. Several people have said it lacks mathematics and fundamental computer science concepts (which it is missing Discrete Math). But I don't look at it that way. It may just be more specialized? The argument is that a Comp Science degree should always be obtained above a CIS or GPS degree regardless of interest. But I disagree. It seems to me that a CS degree is more prep for a Masters, I've seen some CS degrees that barely include a programming course at all, just pure theory and foundational concepts (algorithms, AI, paradigms, etc...), while a CIS focuses on mostly the programming tools with less theory (in some cases)... almost geared for immediate employment.
The Game programming degree for example covers many aspects of both degrees, granted it's missing some things. What do you all think? 90% of the developers I know... over 100 all have CIS or some variant it seems. The few that have a CS are actually lower on the totem poll than their CIS associates as they have less tools under their belt. Do you think it matters if a programmer has a game programming degree or a CIS rather than a CS?
What do you think?
Bachelor of Science: Game Software Development
PROGRAM LENGTH: 36 months
CREDIT HOURS: 196.0
CLOCK HOURS: 2385
COURSE REQUIREMENTS FOR GRADUATION
Course Area Minimum Credits
Core Courses 112.5
General Education 73.5
Humanities 28.0
Social Sciences 17.5
Mathematics 21.0
Natural and Physical Science 7.0
Other Required Courses 10.0
Course No. Course Title Quarter Credits
CORE COURSES
minimum 112.5 credit hours required
CS101 Introduction to Programming Concepts 4.0
CS106 Fundamentals of Programming 6.5
CS210 Intermediate Programming 6.5
CS215 Advanced Programming 4.0
CS220 Data Structures 4.0
CS224 Database Applications 3.5
SG110 Introduction to Game Development 3.0
SG140 Game Analysis and Playability 3.0
SG150 Software Development Lifecycle 4.0
SG210 2D Graphics Programming 6.5
SG215 3D Graphics Programming 4.0
SG220 3D Game Engine Architecture 6.5
SG230 Game Engine Scripting and Tools 4.0
SG300 Game Software Project 3.0
SG310 Algorithm Analysis and Design 4.0
SG350 Game Network Programming 4.0
SG360 Computer Organization and Assembly Language 6.5
SG380 Systems Programming 4.0
SG400 Interpreter Design 6.5
SG420 Game Software Testing and Debugging 4.0
SG430 Game Porting Basics 4.0
SG440 Artificial Intelligence for Games 4.0
SG450 Game Development 3.0
SG455 Game Project Management 3.5
SG490 Game Software Senior Project 6.5
GENERAL EDUCATION
minimum 73.5 credit hours required
HUMANITIES
minimum 28.0 credit hours required
COM112 Communication Skills 3.5
COM305 Public Speaking 3.5
ENG121 College Writing I 3.5
ENG221 College Writing II 3.5
HUM180 Ethical and Critical Thinking 3.5
HUM250 Humanities 3.5
LIT301 Introduction to Literature 3.5
LIT415 Science Fiction and Fantasy 3.5
SOCIAL SCIENCES
minimum 17.5 credit hours required
POL107 American Government 3.5
POL423 Political Science 3.5
PSY101 Introduction to Psychology 3.5
SOC121 Human Relations 3.5
SOC401 Research Methodologies 3.5
MATHEMATICS
minimum 21.0 credit hours required
MTH170 College Algebra I 3.5
MTH221 Trigonometry 3.5
MTH270 College Algebra II 3.5
MTH331 Calculus 3.5
MTH340 Introduction to Statistics 3.5
MTH401 Linear Algebra 3.5
NATURAL AND PHYSICAL SCIENCE
minimum 7.0 credit hours required
SCI121 Introduction to Physical Science 3.5
SCI321 Selected Topics in Physics 3.5
OTHER REQUIRED COURSES
minimum 10.0 credit hours required
CA101 Computer Applications 3.0
PDC111 Success Strategies 3.5
PDC200 Career Management 3.5
1. Traditional Bachelors in Computer Science.
2. Bachelors in Computer Information Systems.
3. Bachelors in Game Programming/Simulation.
The Game Programming/Simulation degree seems to be an issue for some people. For example, take the below program. Several people have said it lacks mathematics and fundamental computer science concepts (which it is missing Discrete Math). But I don't look at it that way. It may just be more specialized? The argument is that a Comp Science degree should always be obtained above a CIS or GPS degree regardless of interest. But I disagree. It seems to me that a CS degree is more prep for a Masters, I've seen some CS degrees that barely include a programming course at all, just pure theory and foundational concepts (algorithms, AI, paradigms, etc...), while a CIS focuses on mostly the programming tools with less theory (in some cases)... almost geared for immediate employment.
The Game programming degree for example covers many aspects of both degrees, granted it's missing some things. What do you all think? 90% of the developers I know... over 100 all have CIS or some variant it seems. The few that have a CS are actually lower on the totem poll than their CIS associates as they have less tools under their belt. Do you think it matters if a programmer has a game programming degree or a CIS rather than a CS?
What do you think?
Bachelor of Science: Game Software Development
PROGRAM LENGTH: 36 months
CREDIT HOURS: 196.0
CLOCK HOURS: 2385
COURSE REQUIREMENTS FOR GRADUATION
Course Area Minimum Credits
Core Courses 112.5
General Education 73.5
Humanities 28.0
Social Sciences 17.5
Mathematics 21.0
Natural and Physical Science 7.0
Other Required Courses 10.0
Course No. Course Title Quarter Credits
CORE COURSES
minimum 112.5 credit hours required
CS101 Introduction to Programming Concepts 4.0
CS106 Fundamentals of Programming 6.5
CS210 Intermediate Programming 6.5
CS215 Advanced Programming 4.0
CS220 Data Structures 4.0
CS224 Database Applications 3.5
SG110 Introduction to Game Development 3.0
SG140 Game Analysis and Playability 3.0
SG150 Software Development Lifecycle 4.0
SG210 2D Graphics Programming 6.5
SG215 3D Graphics Programming 4.0
SG220 3D Game Engine Architecture 6.5
SG230 Game Engine Scripting and Tools 4.0
SG300 Game Software Project 3.0
SG310 Algorithm Analysis and Design 4.0
SG350 Game Network Programming 4.0
SG360 Computer Organization and Assembly Language 6.5
SG380 Systems Programming 4.0
SG400 Interpreter Design 6.5
SG420 Game Software Testing and Debugging 4.0
SG430 Game Porting Basics 4.0
SG440 Artificial Intelligence for Games 4.0
SG450 Game Development 3.0
SG455 Game Project Management 3.5
SG490 Game Software Senior Project 6.5
GENERAL EDUCATION
minimum 73.5 credit hours required
HUMANITIES
minimum 28.0 credit hours required
COM112 Communication Skills 3.5
COM305 Public Speaking 3.5
ENG121 College Writing I 3.5
ENG221 College Writing II 3.5
HUM180 Ethical and Critical Thinking 3.5
HUM250 Humanities 3.5
LIT301 Introduction to Literature 3.5
LIT415 Science Fiction and Fantasy 3.5
SOCIAL SCIENCES
minimum 17.5 credit hours required
POL107 American Government 3.5
POL423 Political Science 3.5
PSY101 Introduction to Psychology 3.5
SOC121 Human Relations 3.5
SOC401 Research Methodologies 3.5
MATHEMATICS
minimum 21.0 credit hours required
MTH170 College Algebra I 3.5
MTH221 Trigonometry 3.5
MTH270 College Algebra II 3.5
MTH331 Calculus 3.5
MTH340 Introduction to Statistics 3.5
MTH401 Linear Algebra 3.5
NATURAL AND PHYSICAL SCIENCE
minimum 7.0 credit hours required
SCI121 Introduction to Physical Science 3.5
SCI321 Selected Topics in Physics 3.5
OTHER REQUIRED COURSES
minimum 10.0 credit hours required
CA101 Computer Applications 3.0
PDC111 Success Strategies 3.5
PDC200 Career Management 3.5
About game programming, I have a friend who writes game engines both professionally and as a hobby, and he only went to high school and a conservatory to learn piano (he's an accomplished player, by the way). The advantage of game programming is that you don't actually need any kind of degree to prove your competence as long as you can show your work to possible future employers. The fact that most of the output is graphical helps a lot, too.
If you'd like, I can ask him how long he's been into game programming to give you a general idea.
What I would do is go for CS and train in game programming in my spare time.
If you'd like, I can ask him how long he's been into game programming to give you a general idea.
What I would do is go for CS and train in game programming in my spare time.
| The advantage of game programming is that you don't actually need any kind of degree to prove your competence as long as you can show your work to possible future employers. |
You're right, it is unique in that sense. From the people I've talked to and material I read, it seems that a very large percentage of people in the game industry have no degree or their degree is not directly related to development.
| If you'd like, I can ask him how long he's been into game programming to give you a general idea. |
Thanks helios, that would be great. I think you're right about getting a CS and training for game programming on the side.
I heard a maths degree gave you a big advantage in game development.
Personally I'm just going to go for a general CS degree; here is the course I'm looking at:
http://www.kcl.ac.uk/schools/pse/dcs/programmes/ug/g400.html
I gotta do a college/6th form course first though. That touches on operating systems, though; so that should be OK. Plus by then, I'll be two years ahead of everyone else in my class >:)
Personally I'm just going to go for a general CS degree; here is the course I'm looking at:
http://www.kcl.ac.uk/schools/pse/dcs/programmes/ug/g400.html
I gotta do a college/6th form course first though. That touches on operating systems, though; so that should be OK. Plus by then, I'll be two years ahead of everyone else in my class >:)
I suppose physics would help a bit too, So really though, it kinda means you could fake getting higher positions pretty easy. I mean the amount of people I've seen get into the IT industry that don't have a clue or never had any interest in IT really boggles me.
For instance in high school a drug addict friend of mine a couple years after highschool got a job through a friend as a Network engineer, simply lied his way though the interview with no knowledge of Networking. Now he's the head of Networking for a certain Large well respected University.
Additionally my ex about 5 years back got my sisters boyfriend a job as a Linux programmer even though he had no programming knowledge, he simply was an Anit-MS freak who hosted lots of IIRC chat rooms. I think that one erked me more than the Networking guy.
Back OT, it would be pretty easy to borrow friends work for interviews and fake your way through somewhat, I'm thinking like a few years above your level would be pretty easy.
For instance in high school a drug addict friend of mine a couple years after highschool got a job through a friend as a Network engineer, simply lied his way though the interview with no knowledge of Networking. Now he's the head of Networking for a certain Large well respected University.
Additionally my ex about 5 years back got my sisters boyfriend a job as a Linux programmer even though he had no programming knowledge, he simply was an Anit-MS freak who hosted lots of IIRC chat rooms. I think that one erked me more than the Networking guy.
Back OT, it would be pretty easy to borrow friends work for interviews and fake your way through somewhat, I'm thinking like a few years above your level would be pretty easy.
chris dont't you live in Kent? There CS degree looks great. I applied there :) And if your sixth form is anything like mine or the ones around me your dreaming if you think you'll just touch on OS's :( You get f*** all!
@gcampton
wtf, what a cheater friend you have there. i personally can't lie on the interview. or do you people think everyone does it?
wtf, what a cheater friend you have there. i personally can't lie on the interview. or do you people think everyone does it?
Everyone embellishes during interviews... some things however you should never lie about.
| You're right, it is unique in that sense. From the people I've talked to and material I read, it seems that a very large percentage of people in the game industry have no degree or their degree is not directly related to development. |
That may be true, but it's also, on average, one of the lowest payed and hardest worked industries of all the Engineering disciplines, with or without a degree.
| That may be true, but it's also, on average, one of the lowest payed and hardest worked industries of all the Engineering disciplines, with or without a degree. |
That is unfortunately true as well. It does also depend on the company. For example, Blizzard pays their developers REALLY well, and many of the game development studios offer 100% employee paid benefits, employee lunches, etc... It just depends really. Companies like EA have screwed up the industry.
| chris dont't you live in Kent? There CS degree looks great. |
What University in Kent? And besides, I want to be as far away from home as possible...
| Companies like EA have screwed up the industry. |
The major issue I have with the game industry is companies like Activision, Ubisoft and Microsoft - publishing companies - which don't even make the games they sell. They put their logo on, bigger than that of the company which made the game, and in Microsoft's case, even manage to get copyright of everything in the game (Halo). Microsoft has copyright of every character in Halo 1 and 2; so they could just decide one day that they don't want Bungie making Halo games and that's it. I thought the point of copyright was that when you come up with an idea, someone can't steal it. Apparently not, which I think is pathetic.
| I thought the point of copyright was that when you come up with an idea, someone can't steal it. Apparently not, which I think is pathetic. |
Don't take this as a defense of Microsoft, but they didn't steal anything from Bungie. Bungie signed it all over knowing full well what they were doing.
It doesn't matter anyway, after Halo 1 in my opinion the series tanked so I wouldn't mind them taking it from Bungie!
@jRaskell,
I know that; Bungie aren't idiots. I was just using that as an example. It irks me that companies can do that. I just think Microsoft are easy targets because they get caught doing things like that alot. At the same time, I actually support them to an extent vs. the EU. Why shouldn't they bundle their web browser with their operating system? It's Windows and Windows internet explorer. You still have a choice of whether to use it or not... if you want something that works* it's your choice. Why not complain that MacOSX is bundled with Safari or most Linux and BSDs with Firefox? Or KDE with Konquerer? It's just sniping at Microsoft, even though I hate them. I think I hate them for at least valid reasons.
@Return 0,
You think so? I like 2 and 3, and to a lesser extent, ODST. 2 is good because of the campaign: playing as the Arbiter is awesome. 3 is mostly for the multiplayer: I think they put the most effort into the multiplayer because the campaign is "OK" at best; but some of the maps are amazing, particularly in terms of artisticness. Another thing I like about Bungie games is they only have to credit themselves. Some games credit about 50 companies at the start: Bungie do everything themselves.
ODST is fun, but too much of it reminds me of call of duty, which I dislike, plus the campaign is only good with more than one person. Firefight is boring, IMO.
@helios,
I didn't mean to sound naiive; I'm not saying "Oh man that sucks, I have to do something about it and be a retarded activist." It just irritates me that that's how it seems to go: whoever has the most money always gets their way. On the other hand, I have virtually no experience of things like this, so of course I don't understand how the world works.
* this laptop I'm using hung for over twenty minutes trying to open ie8. And the incompetent idiots who (unfortunately) my computer has a warrantee under (the graphics card has faulty cooling) claim the hard disk has 'gone' (where?); when I know for a fact it's the card. How could you boot the system if the hard disk was totally broken? It surely wouldn't POST if the hard disk was gone. Anyway, that's why I'm on a laptop...
I know that; Bungie aren't idiots. I was just using that as an example. It irks me that companies can do that. I just think Microsoft are easy targets because they get caught doing things like that alot. At the same time, I actually support them to an extent vs. the EU. Why shouldn't they bundle their web browser with their operating system? It's Windows and Windows internet explorer. You still have a choice of whether to use it or not... if you want something that works* it's your choice. Why not complain that MacOSX is bundled with Safari or most Linux and BSDs with Firefox? Or KDE with Konquerer? It's just sniping at Microsoft, even though I hate them. I think I hate them for at least valid reasons.
@Return 0,
You think so? I like 2 and 3, and to a lesser extent, ODST. 2 is good because of the campaign: playing as the Arbiter is awesome. 3 is mostly for the multiplayer: I think they put the most effort into the multiplayer because the campaign is "OK" at best; but some of the maps are amazing, particularly in terms of artisticness. Another thing I like about Bungie games is they only have to credit themselves. Some games credit about 50 companies at the start: Bungie do everything themselves.
ODST is fun, but too much of it reminds me of call of duty, which I dislike, plus the campaign is only good with more than one person. Firefight is boring, IMO.
@helios,
I didn't mean to sound naiive; I'm not saying "Oh man that sucks, I have to do something about it and be a retarded activist." It just irritates me that that's how it seems to go: whoever has the most money always gets their way. On the other hand, I have virtually no experience of things like this, so of course I don't understand how the world works.
* this laptop I'm using hung for over twenty minutes trying to open ie8. And the incompetent idiots who (unfortunately) my computer has a warrantee under (the graphics card has faulty cooling) claim the hard disk has 'gone' (where?); when I know for a fact it's the card. How could you boot the system if the hard disk was totally broken? It surely wouldn't POST if the hard disk was gone. Anyway, that's why I'm on a laptop...
| It's Windows and Windows internet explorer. You still have a choice of whether to use it or not... if you want something that works* it's your choice. Why not complain that MacOSX is bundled with Safari or most Linux and BSDs with Firefox? Or KDE with Konquerer? |
That isn't the point, and at any rate, like I said: it's Windows Internet Explorer, not Microsoft Internet Explorer. It's considered part of the operating system. Removing it would be like removing regedit. Now, they should let you uninstall it easily, yes, but at the same time; I'm still against the EU having that much control over what programs they choose to bundle with their operating system. Here's a thought: if you don't like what comes with the OS, don't use it! Use one of the countless other web browsers out there. As for "how are you meant to get a different browser, you need to use IE to download it"... what do we have removable storage for?
Maybe Microsoft could port wget; they ported grep, XP uses it in it's setup. I saw yesterday when some "technician" (his interview: "Yes, I know how to reboot a computer and change a spreadsheet." "You're overqualified!") at my school was installing XP on a computer and I'm 100% sure I saw "grep.exe".
Maybe Microsoft could port wget; they ported grep, XP uses it in it's setup. I saw yesterday when some "technician" (his interview: "Yes, I know how to reboot a computer and change a spreadsheet." "You're overqualified!") at my school was installing XP on a computer and I'm 100% sure I saw "grep.exe".
chrisname: It's a simple fact. Bungie is a small development company. If they can't afford to publish their own games (media [DVDs], publicity, etc.), they'll have to hire a publishing company. It's very similar to when an individual wants to publish a book. The publishers are taking a risk by putting money into the project, so of course they'll want to get a cut of the revenues.
Not to mention that for a while Bungie was a subsidiary of Microsoft.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_publishing
Bazzy: Just because it's installed, doesn't mean you have to use it.
EDIT: Mine says "Microsoft Internet Explorer" (6.0.2900).
Not to mention that for a while Bungie was a subsidiary of Microsoft.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_publishing
Bazzy: Just because it's installed, doesn't mean you have to use it.
EDIT: Mine says "Microsoft Internet Explorer" (6.0.2900).
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| Not to mention that for a while Bungie was a subsidiary of Microsoft. |
I know that. I have no problem with them getting some of the money, they deserve it. They don't deserve copyright of everything to do with the game.
| Mine says "Microsoft Internet Explorer" (6.0.2900). |
Does it? I think it must be as of 7 (that's IE 7) that it says Windows then, because at my school* it says Windows Internet Explorer.
* They use windows xp; apparently they get a large discount from Microsoft. I can see how that's a brilliant marketing technique: generations of kids brought up knowing how to use Microsoft's software and no-one elses. Ingenious. Shame they don't put as much effort into making quality programs as they do into brainwashing kids into thinking they do, or that it's the computer's fault (whenever XP crashes it's "these computers are slow". No, they aren't. Can you oscillate 2 billion times a second? No you can't. It's the operating system and all the applications that it has to sit there and load. I almost feel sorry for it; it has to load about a hundred resource-hungry programs into memory and ask the CPU to run them. Windows must feel like Madonna and all her 3rd world adopted children (ZING!).
| * They use windows xp; apparently they get a large discount from Microsoft. I can see how that's a brilliant marketing technique [etc] |
If you want the FSF description of that: http://en.windows7sins.org/education/
FSF descriptions of MS are always funny ( and vice-versa )
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