In light of recent events...

[cire]

Not really topical, but might be of interest:
http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/beginner/180613/

Z e r e o wrote:

Now I didn't really want to be involved in this drama oscus1 thing on the forum, but this statement really really disgusted me...

I wouldn't worry too much about it. He's just telling stories to inflate his perceived importance.

[Shadowwolf]

I just came to read the newest additions to this subject. I happened to notice that all but the first message in this subject have been marked as "reported". This even though most of the posts in this subject seem like sincere posts. It does address the problem. There are people who abuse the current system of the forum and instead of discussing whether or not we are all soap characters and who is the best actor, we should be focusing on how to solve the problem.

As a side note, I do agree we cannot tell who is who for a lot of people on this forum, but does that really matter? This is a forum on C++ programming. Does it actually matter who has the problem and who solved it?

[ResidentBiscuit]

All posts are reported. Kemort removed all the text of his posts. Interesting.

[Z e r e o]

To try and help those that wished to try and follow the discussion in it's entirety (Well at least part of it, some posts were not yet cached) here is some of the posts that were deleted in order of their post. This is all the crawlers had picked up before they were deleted for some reason.

kemort wrote:

Thoughts?


Hi -Albatross,

Since you ask ...

I think it is a little ironical that a relative newbie, namely oscus has been singled out.

Sure, his posts have ruffled a few of the feathers of the numerically extensive posters here but it is a storm in a teacup pushed a long way by my elsewhere referred to stacks-on-the-mill approach - not unusual iggy-ganging-up-type response common to north america blogs I observe over a number of years.

My own experience with being reported is by petulant newbies throwing a tanty on a couple of occasions, a response in some other one or two cases to my failure at being witty (my fault which I have to take on the chin), but in a couple of cases by a couple of longstanders I describe as the C++ taliban, array police or vector nazis who harp on and on about using namespace, std (there's an ambiguity there) and a couple of other relatively trivial issues shrouded in the gravest tones.

I too learned that reporting is a weapon to the bullies here. The psychology evident once they too are reported is straight out of the book. Cowards are like that.

In one case a very numerically large poster here has decided to treat my posts with contempt, derision and insult and only in the last couple of days has laid low. I made the mistake of going head to head for a couple of rounds a while ago because they made me angry as he wanted, but unlike me and other decent people he doesn't know when to stop and needs to be instructed by people in greater authority than me. His employer is about to be notified and if all goes well, despite my failed attempts to contact the perpetrator directly to resolve, through no fault of mine, he is about to put his job on the line and face the full force of the cyber bullying laws. I am not frightened to name him but I'll keep my powder dry. He knows who he is.

Another one attempted to bully me over a period and has gone. One of his better decisions in life. He actually retracted and left embarrassed, all of his own accord as far as I know. He remains an insult to the engineering profession and its international code of ethics.

So my point is that this is all a serious matter. But no particular group, including the long stayers, are immune.

I thought you might like to put that in you melting pot, Albatross, since you asked. It might perhaps help in broadening the current view.

Cheers.

kemort wrote:

I sent a message about that as well.


Behave at will TIM, I've always found you to be respectful in your dealings with ppl, and far be it for me to sit in judgment on you.

I also noticed osucs response to your weighing in there. Sometimes weighing in can be seen as stacks-on-the-mill and is counterproductive. Sometimes it might even be actionable at law when joined with the bully.

Sometimes it's better not to get involved if no harm is being done.

As we all know bullies rally support very easily from in-group people they frighten. Making rules (more rules!) to (innocently) protect them are regrettable. :)

kemort wrote:

naraku9333

@kemort I see nowhere this particular troll was bullied by any means.

I'm glad I didn't make that assessment - either in relation to a troll or bully.

Politeness is in the eye of the beholder. For instance you use the conventional @ which is not the way we speak in person unless we talk at somebody which I am sure you wouldn't do from what you say.

You unfortunately got caught in a crossfire and decided to put your toe in the ring and it got unceremoniously snipped. I don't blame you for it. That's just the way it was in my estimation. I prefer not to be called a douche-bag too!

The difficulty I see is that as we all know an internet post can often be interpreted badly simply because it is devoid of all the normal human interaction cues and gestures. Equally somebody who sees they have been misunderstood could dispel the misunderstanding by just saying Oops, I'm sorry or I didn't mean it that way and this is what I meant. I'm sure you know 'the game'.

I hadn't planned on getting involved in a debate even though I don't mind being accountable for what I write.

My intent as I stated was to broaden the view rather than getting involved in group-think. I'm confident you don't want that either. Cheers :)

[Shadowwolf]

It seems someone is deliberately reporting good posts. I saw another example of this in this topic today:

http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/beginner/180669/

Isn't there anything we could do to unreport a post? If not, it might be a good idea to add such a feature. That way we can undo any reporting that shouldn't have been done.

[aquavillan]

I think admin doesn't even need to see them. I have seen a number of examples in which their posts were reported but never handled (whether or not those reports were intially legal). Also, one cannot disable someone's account with a high post count by just repeatedly reporting. (Though, they will be soon forgotten when the threads are archived)

However, thanks to the feature that we are able to disable some random newcomer account that seems annoying before the problem gets worse, we can save a lot of time of our days. There's no need to add unneccessary features like unreporting a post (it is a little against the logic), I think we have enough tools alreadly to moderate the forum. I, however, suggest implementing a feature that hides the status of being reported from new users (only the reporter, the person who is reported and experienced users can see it). Well, IMO we can always get most of the work done with just little efforts. And if neccessary, tell admin to handle the rest.

[TheIdeasMan]

@Shadowwolf

I saw another example of this in this topic today:

We have (another?) oxygen thief reporting all of JLBorges' posts and cire's, I sent a PM to twicker about it.

twicker replied to another of my PM's about osucs1, so he is on the case.

Hopefully, if a troll reports hundreds of posts by another user, it will show up on some stats that admin can see.

[Shadowwolf]

I understand that we are able to disable newcomers that only mean harm using the current layout, but it also comes with the side-effect that good posts can -and will- be reported by the people we try to block using these features. Is there no solution we can think up that would address both problems?

[Ispil]

...We could start by not showing when a post has been reported.

[E0p9LyTq]

Ispil wrote:

We could start by not showing when a post has been reported.

Not all users need to see who was reported; just the reporter, the reportee and the admin/moderator people.

This thread is a good example why letting everyone see who was reported could be a bad idea. Temper tantrums don't need to be so visible.

But what do I know, I'm only a noob here.

[aquavillan]

Unneccessary reported posts will make newcomers and guests have bad impression and feel that this site is unsecure. That's why a normal reported post should be hidden from new users and guests. However, an user with high post count (for example) can choose whether that post should be displayed completely to new users (if it is a valid report and if they feel it is neccessary to show them, and the action cannot be undone). We have a button to do this (Publicize) button. That way we should not worry about those newcomer trolls who is trying to dirty the forum everyday by repeatedly reporting someone's posts. Simply because their biggest audiences have totally gone (innocent newcomers and guests)

[MikeyBoy]

...We could start by not showing when a post has been reported.

I'm firmly of the opinion that more transparent moderation is a good thing. When people can clearly see what the moderators have done, on what basis, and why, that helps foster a clear understanding of what standards are expected by the community, and why people are moderated, and how we can all avoid making mistakes and do what the community considers to be the right thing.

When the only information we have is that a post has been reported, that really doesn't tell us anything useful that helps us. What I'd love to see is the moderators clearly indicating what they want from us as posters, when posters have crossed the line into unacceptable behaviour, and what we should do to avoid unacceptable behaviour.

That would get rid of all of the problems of malicious reporting. If we were used to seeing what posts were considered unacceptable by the moderators, that would also mean we could clearly see when maliciously reported posts weren't considered problematic. We could have confidence that, when we were being maliciously reported (and, yes, it's happened to me), we weren't somehow going to end up being unfairly punished, because we would have confidence that we could see when moderators did take action, and why.

We would also get reassurance (if it were needed) that the mods were being fair about applying action. Personally, I believe they are - but I think the worry some people have about malicious reporting, is because they think the moderators might act against those who are being unfairly reported.

I've been on many, many different forums over the years, and the ones with transparent moderation always seem to the ones that are best-behaved, and where moderation is the most well-understood and well-respected.

Having said all that, I would like it if a post being reported, didn't stop other people from reporting it. If a troll is report-bombing, and they happen to report a post that genuinely should be reported, then it means other people can't submit a legitimate, non-troll report. That seems to me to be unhelpful.

EDIT: It would also be nice if there was a way to report a post without triggering auto-deletion. As I posted in http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/lounge/180588/ there have been times when a post deserved reporting, but not deleting, and it's a pity there's no way to do that.

[MikeyBoy]

Wow, that didn't take long.

I'm guessing our report-spammer is in an American time zone...

[MikeyBoy]

Is it just me, or were trolls better in the old days? These days, the new ones just don't seem to put any effort into it.

[E0p9LyTq]

MikeyBoy wrote:

Is it just me, or were trolls better in the old days?

Not just you.

[MikeyBoy]

Not just you.

I remember the good old days of Usenet. We had trolls who were true masters of the craft, back then. Not like these youngsters nowadays.

[E0p9LyTq]

MikeyBoy wrote:

I remember the good old days of Usenet.

Ah, good times, good times. The sound of the 300 baud modem connecting, and the "blazing" speed of text downloading. ;)