In light of recent events...
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Of course, this isn't the first report spree we've had, nor the first troll with the patience to wait a little bit until the ban-on-report period passes.
But I would like to reopen the discussion about the report system here, for one reason. A few minutes before closing their account (or being banned), a troll (oscus1, http://www.cplusplus.com/user/closed_account_9N36C542/ ) with about 100 posts was able to disable at least one newcomer's account (selfstudy, http://www.cplusplus.com/user/selfstudy/ ) through report abuse. For those who don't know, each account starts with a sort of "hypersensitivity" period. Reported posts get hidden (or are they just outright deleted?). If multiple posts get reported, the account gets disabled pending admin review.
Now, this system is very effective against spam. Spam posts show up, and we clean them up shortly thereafter. Unfortunately, it turns out it can also be used by somewhat patient trolls against newbies with otherwise genuine questions, or by otherwise immature people who want to feel powerful.
This site's community has grown quite a bit, and it has changed. I like the fact that we have some form of community moderation. However, I am starting to think that there needs to be a change to the moderation scheme. Spam isn't the only source of disruption we face now. I don't know for sure what those changes would be, and no, I don't think traditional moderators are the answer. Judging character is a difficult venture.
Thoughts?
EDIT: I would propose some means of the community being able to move threads. There were some discussions in the Beginners section that would have been more appropriate in the Lounge, IMO.
-Albatross
But I would like to reopen the discussion about the report system here, for one reason. A few minutes before closing their account (or being banned), a troll (oscus1, http://www.cplusplus.com/user/closed_account_9N36C542/ ) with about 100 posts was able to disable at least one newcomer's account (selfstudy, http://www.cplusplus.com/user/selfstudy/ ) through report abuse. For those who don't know, each account starts with a sort of "hypersensitivity" period. Reported posts get hidden (or are they just outright deleted?). If multiple posts get reported, the account gets disabled pending admin review.
Now, this system is very effective against spam. Spam posts show up, and we clean them up shortly thereafter. Unfortunately, it turns out it can also be used by somewhat patient trolls against newbies with otherwise genuine questions, or by otherwise immature people who want to feel powerful.
This site's community has grown quite a bit, and it has changed. I like the fact that we have some form of community moderation. However, I am starting to think that there needs to be a change to the moderation scheme. Spam isn't the only source of disruption we face now. I don't know for sure what those changes would be, and no, I don't think traditional moderators are the answer. Judging character is a difficult venture.
Thoughts?
EDIT: I would propose some means of the community being able to move threads. There were some discussions in the Beginners section that would have been more appropriate in the Lounge, IMO.
-Albatross
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I have just removed a bunch of oscus1's posts in Beginner forum, making C++ forum look a little cleaner.
IMO, there's no need to worry for the time being. But then if the situation does not improve, I think this forum really needs to be changed.
Just saying.
IMO, there's no need to worry for the time being. But then if the situation does not improve, I think this forum really needs to be changed.
Just saying.
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These things happen. New kid turns up, throws tantrum, pollutes other people's threads and trashes the StN ratio. We wait 12 hours, account has been deleted, people can go on with their lives. it doesn't happen very often so I'm not convinced any changes need to be made.
I would advice for a system where at least a few members have to report a post before it will be deleted. That way nobody can remove valid post by themselves. Since this forum is visited quite often by a lot of users, requiring at least a number of people to report a post before it will be deleted will make sure this doesn't happen.
I also advice for a system that allows users who posted a lot to be able to report a user, instead of just their posts. Users who posted a lot (more than a few hundred times) are usually not trolls and do not mean to harm the site. When a few of these users report a person, we can be quite sure the reported person is misbehaving on the forums and the account should be closed.
@Albatross
A system that allows to move threads around would indeed seem a good solution. A lot of posts end up in the wrong parts of the forum making them harder to find. For example, a beginner might be able to answer some questions in the beginners forum, but may not be able to answer questions in the general forum. Moving the threads around does seem like an appropriate solution to this problem. Just like with everything else, I do recommend that at least a couple of users should mark the thread as "to be moved" before the actual move is performed, so threads aren't moved when the should not be.
I also advice for a system that allows users who posted a lot to be able to report a user, instead of just their posts. Users who posted a lot (more than a few hundred times) are usually not trolls and do not mean to harm the site. When a few of these users report a person, we can be quite sure the reported person is misbehaving on the forums and the account should be closed.
@Albatross
A system that allows to move threads around would indeed seem a good solution. A lot of posts end up in the wrong parts of the forum making them harder to find. For example, a beginner might be able to answer some questions in the beginners forum, but may not be able to answer questions in the general forum. Moving the threads around does seem like an appropriate solution to this problem. Just like with everything else, I do recommend that at least a couple of users should mark the thread as "to be moved" before the actual move is performed, so threads aren't moved when the should not be.
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@Shadowwolf
Being able to remove a post at once is a good thing, a lot of us delete spam about 5 times per day. This relies upon the spam poster having a low post count. In the case of selfstudy, it wasn't his personal posts being reported, it was us reporting the troll?
With moving topics, a problem there is that malicious users could wreak havoc by moving things willy nilly, just to be a nuisance. Trolls tend to create lots of accounts, not all of them with troll like behaviour, so any such scheme would probably have to be entrusted to a small group of known responsible members. It has been mentioned before: Allow some members to be moderators, I am not sure how much work that would be for twicker.
Also, there is the concept of what is considered to be beginner? Most of us probably have a good idea, but a lot posts end up in General because it says that one can post about any Topic. It has been mentioned before to change the Name of General to "Advanced".
Users can report a user, just send a PM to twicker, I and probably some others did it yesterday to remove osucs1. Someone is reporting all of JLBorges posts too, I sent a message about that as well.
Being able to remove a post at once is a good thing, a lot of us delete spam about 5 times per day. This relies upon the spam poster having a low post count. In the case of selfstudy, it wasn't his personal posts being reported, it was us reporting the troll?
With moving topics, a problem there is that malicious users could wreak havoc by moving things willy nilly, just to be a nuisance. Trolls tend to create lots of accounts, not all of them with troll like behaviour, so any such scheme would probably have to be entrusted to a small group of known responsible members. It has been mentioned before: Allow some members to be moderators, I am not sure how much work that would be for twicker.
Also, there is the concept of what is considered to be beginner? Most of us probably have a good idea, but a lot posts end up in General because it says that one can post about any Topic. It has been mentioned before to change the Name of General to "Advanced".
Users can report a user, just send a PM to twicker, I and probably some others did it yesterday to remove osucs1. Someone is reporting all of JLBorges posts too, I sent a message about that as well.
@kemort
Yeah, perhaps I shouldn't have made any comments in that particular topic, but sometimes I can't resist a bit of comedy. :+) After all, it wasn't going to last long. If anything, my (weak?) et. al. comedy probably hastened the troll's exit.
But I have no problem at all in reporting someone, or taking further action, if someone clearly isn't being nice.
Meanwhile, we could just adopt Moschops view :+)
Yeah, perhaps I shouldn't have made any comments in that particular topic, but sometimes I can't resist a bit of comedy. :+) After all, it wasn't going to last long. If anything, my (weak?) et. al. comedy probably hastened the troll's exit.
But I have no problem at all in reporting someone, or taking further action, if someone clearly isn't being nice.
Meanwhile, we could just adopt Moschops view :+)
@kemort I see nowhere this particular troll was bullied by any means. In fact, he was more the bully personally attacking several forum members. He called me a douche bag because I, very politely, told him his off topic post (double post actually) didn't belong in the forum he posted it in. In this particular situation, I've seen no bullying.
| kermort wrote: |
|---|
| In one case a very numerically large poster here has decided to treat my posts with contempt, derision and insult and only in the last couple of days has laid low. I made the mistake of going head to head for a couple of rounds a while ago because they made me angry as he wanted, but unlike me and other decent people he doesn't know when to stop and needs to be instructed by people in greater authority than me. His employer is about to be notified and if all goes well, despite my failed attempts to contact the perpetrator directly to resolve, through no fault of mine, he is about to put his job on the line and face the full force of the cyber bullying laws. |
Now I didn't really want to be involved in this
Are you seriously trying to get someone fired from their workplace because of a disagreement and/or argument (That you yourself admittedly participated in) on an online public forum? How do you even work that out to be justice or " the right thing to do"? You are actively seeking out and going through great effort to inflict pain to someone and or destroy someones career. I'm sorry I just don't see how you could consider this the right thing to do no matter what insults you and the other user might have exchanged.
If anything what you yourself are doing is cyber bullying (That potentially has far reaching real life implications) and you should be ashamed of yourself kemort.
Sorry for intruding into this thread and taking it a bit off topic.
Edit: Reworded it a bit so it doesn't look like I am implying that talking about possibly reworking the moderation on this forum is drama, I actually agree that something might need to be changed but am not sure on how to go about it myself. Instead what I meant by drama is the whole oscus1 thing.
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closed account (z05DSL3A)
| kermort wrote: |
|---|
| In one case a very numerically large poster here has decided to treat my posts with contempt, derision and insult and only in the last couple of days has laid low. |
| and wrote: |
|---|
| in a couple of cases by a couple of longstanders I describe as the C++ taliban, array police or vector nazis |
"Oho!" said the pot to the kettle;
"You are dirty and ugly and black!
Sure no one would think you were metal,
Except when you're given a crack."
"Not so! not so!" kettle said to the pot;
"'Tis your own dirty image you see;
For I am so clean – without blemish or blot –
That your blackness is mirrored in me."
| The perpetrator in this case has put his job on the line, not me. |
You're still the one pointing the metaphorical gun. Whether it's justifiable self defense is another issue. You think it is. Zereo doesn't.
Also. You're not afraid of trying to get someone fired over an online dispute on a forum that (unless you gave out your information) necessarily stays on the forum. However, you are hesitant to name them, or any particular incidents. Is it because doing so would give them a chance to defend themselves when they realize that they're the ones under (counter)attack?
Retroactive EDIT, because I don't feel this warrants another post from me: It's, of course, certainly your right to take what I say as provocation. I, frankly, am not interested in an argument or to evoke any sort of irrational response. My intent was to express my view that your actions do not make much sense to me unless we consider the possibility that you're aware that some of those actions are underhanded, yet choose to commit to them anyway. Is that underhandedness necessary? I made no assertion one way or the other.
Retroactive EDIT 2: How did I know there was going to be another report spree here?
-Albatross
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I'd like to throw in here.
Blah blah blah whinge whinge whinge THESE ARE LINES OF TEXT ON A SCREEN WRITTEN BY STRANGERS WHO ARE LESS REAL THAN SOAP OPERA CHARACTERS.
This isn't some kind of support forum in which, for example, people struggling with their sexuality in a harsh world are opening themselves up emotionally and then being frightened and intimidated.
My cup of tea going slightly cold is more distressing than a billion lines of abuse on cplusplus.com
The only time it's an actual problem is when a troll spouts abuse in threads in which people are seeking actual help with their programming, and it's only a problem because those people might not get the help they're seeking or might feel that they can't get high-quality help here. That's the damage. All else is noise.
Blah blah blah whinge whinge whinge THESE ARE LINES OF TEXT ON A SCREEN WRITTEN BY STRANGERS WHO ARE LESS REAL THAN SOAP OPERA CHARACTERS.
This isn't some kind of support forum in which, for example, people struggling with their sexuality in a harsh world are opening themselves up emotionally and then being frightened and intimidated.
My cup of tea going slightly cold is more distressing than a billion lines of abuse on cplusplus.com
The only time it's an actual problem is when a troll spouts abuse in threads in which people are seeking actual help with their programming, and it's only a problem because those people might not get the help they're seeking or might feel that they can't get high-quality help here. That's the damage. All else is noise.
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They're less real than soap opera characters. Soap opera characters have faces and voices. These are lines of text on a screen. I am less real than The Great Gatsby.
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