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To be fair, computers are dumb. That doesn't mean they can't be made to appear intelligent, but again, that doesn't change the fact that they're dumb.
Maybe we are dumb too, just unable to see it. After all, introspection only gets you so far.
Maybe we are dumb too, just unable to see it. After all, introspection only gets you so far.
Just my 20 cents: the human brain holds around 10-100 billion neurons. ( http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2002/AniciaNdabahaliye2.shtml ) This means our brains are running around 100 billion processes in parallel. The best of computers nowadays run 100 thousand processes in parallel. I see a big computational difference.
Computers are veeeeeeeery slow compared to humans.
A human brain functions in frequences up to 100 Hz. (http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071229215026AAP1aXp)
One last argument that COULD be the reason for our great computational power. Our brain's signals are analog. You can encode multiple digital signals in a single analog one, and that is what they use to do "quantum computing".
Making a single operation to an analog signal obtained through mixing digital signals can correspond to multiple digital operations. That is why a quantum computer with only 28 elements can already do non-trivial computations. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qAIPC7vG3Y )
Computers are veeeeeeeery slow compared to humans.
A human brain functions in frequences up to 100 Hz. (http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071229215026AAP1aXp)
One last argument that COULD be the reason for our great computational power. Our brain's signals are analog. You can encode multiple digital signals in a single analog one, and that is what they use to do "quantum computing".
Making a single operation to an analog signal obtained through mixing digital signals can correspond to multiple digital operations. That is why a quantum computer with only 28 elements can already do non-trivial computations. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qAIPC7vG3Y )
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@hamsterman,
I'm not offended by you and your English is pretty good.
I don't think a computer can "produce something as complex as consciousness" because I don't see how that would work. How can a machine, something which just does a lot of maths, "feel"? Humans and other animals have emotions (although
Also, essentially when I write down a bunch of stuff in a post; I'm writing down my own opinion on the subject, what I've heard, and what I think makes sense. I never say that what I'm saying is fact, and I'm often wrong. So? It's good to see things from multiple points of view. Or do I need to put "in my opinion" on every line? It should be obvious that the majority of what I say is my opinion. I'm the one typing it!
Finally, computers are dumb in that they don't understand the data they take as input or the output they produce. By "they just do things" I mean they literally just do. Humans always try to understand what they're doing. I can't see someone like Shakespeare just writing down a bunch of words and hoping it's a sonnet. Could a computer write a poem, if it was programmed to do so? No, because computers have no concept of emotion. And how would you program that into a computer?
I'm not offended by you and your English is pretty good.
I don't think a computer can "produce something as complex as consciousness" because I don't see how that would work. How can a machine, something which just does a lot of maths, "feel"? Humans and other animals have emotions (although
Also, essentially when I write down a bunch of stuff in a post; I'm writing down my own opinion on the subject, what I've heard, and what I think makes sense. I never say that what I'm saying is fact, and I'm often wrong. So? It's good to see things from multiple points of view. Or do I need to put "in my opinion" on every line? It should be obvious that the majority of what I say is my opinion. I'm the one typing it!
Finally, computers are dumb in that they don't understand the data they take as input or the output they produce. By "they just do things" I mean they literally just do. Humans always try to understand what they're doing. I can't see someone like Shakespeare just writing down a bunch of words and hoping it's a sonnet. Could a computer write a poem, if it was programmed to do so? No, because computers have no concept of emotion. And how would you program that into a computer?
You're falling into the age-old trap of magical thinking and anthropocentrism. "We are special. Our brains are magical."
Worse(?) still, you're creating differences where there are none. Most complex processes are really just complex interactions or successions of simpler ones.
Of course computers just do. The fact that they "do" at the high level means that they probably also "do" at the low level. Does that invalidate the higher level doings? No. Brains also just "do". What they do is just not clearly understood simply because we didn't build the damn things.
Saying "it just is" doesn't answer anything and is the same kind of thinking that's the base of the myths and religions (unless I'm confusing you with GreyWolf) you... dislike?
"Well, we don't really understand thunder and lightning, so let's just say it's this big guy in the sky throwing thunderbolts and leave it at that."
Worse(?) still, you're creating differences where there are none. Most complex processes are really just complex interactions or successions of simpler ones.
Of course computers just do. The fact that they "do" at the high level means that they probably also "do" at the low level. Does that invalidate the higher level doings? No. Brains also just "do". What they do is just not clearly understood simply because we didn't build the damn things.
Saying "it just is" doesn't answer anything and is the same kind of thinking that's the base of the myths and religions (unless I'm confusing you with GreyWolf) you... dislike?
"Well, we don't really understand thunder and lightning, so let's just say it's this big guy in the sky throwing thunderbolts and leave it at that."
http://thinkzone.wlonk.com/PoemGen/PoemGen.htm
There's a computer writing poetry.
Sure, it's no Shakespeare, but then, you'd get about the same result if you asked the average 5 year old to right a poem.
Think of it this way. When humans are born, they are incapable of doing virtually anything at all. We can't speak. We can't walk. We can't make anything but poop and puke. We can't even feed ourselves. We're utterly helpless bundles of flesh. It's only after some 18 years of programming that we become complex, fully functional adults. Even then, most of us can't even come close to producing something comparable to Shakespeare's works. So I wouldn't exactly call that a fair comparison.
There's a computer writing poetry.
Sure, it's no Shakespeare, but then, you'd get about the same result if you asked the average 5 year old to right a poem.
Think of it this way. When humans are born, they are incapable of doing virtually anything at all. We can't speak. We can't walk. We can't make anything but poop and puke. We can't even feed ourselves. We're utterly helpless bundles of flesh. It's only after some 18 years of programming that we become complex, fully functional adults. Even then, most of us can't even come close to producing something comparable to Shakespeare's works. So I wouldn't exactly call that a fair comparison.
@helios
Fair enough.
@jRaskell
Ok, it looks like I've just been disproven. That's pretty cool.
It's... so beautiful!
I'll never view a shark again :'(
Fair enough.
@jRaskell
Ok, it looks like I've just been disproven. That's pretty cool.
| THE MOON ENDURES LIKE A WARM SEA. THE BREEZE ENDURES LIKE A OLD SHORE. SHORES WAVE LIKE RAINY SAILS. ALL SUNS LEAD STORMY, RAINY CAPTAINS. NEVER VIEW A SHARK. |
It's... so beautiful!
I'll never view a shark again :'(
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Rofl (sorry for just butting into your conversation)
Are they aimed at being funny?
@jRaskell
Humans start with perfect AI in that we can learn grow and improve, computers will never be anything but computers, they may look act and even talk human, but that is just AI and it will be flawed AI. At least that is how I feel.
| LIFE, ADVENTURE, AND LIFE. DIE ROUGHLY LIKE A BIG TUNA. |
Are they aimed at being funny?
@jRaskell
Humans start with perfect AI in that we can learn grow and improve, computers will never be anything but computers, they may look act and even talk human, but that is just AI and it will be flawed AI. At least that is how I feel.
| Humans start with perfect AI in that we can learn grow and improve |
You do realize, i hope, that the google search engine that most people use is based on algorithms that use machine learning. Extremely primitive machine learning that is - a learning tree, which compared to the way our brain is wired is like comparing a multicell organism with no neural system living in the ocean to a human.
Machine learning is cool. There's a program called Polyworld that has evolutionary and machine learning algorithms, it simulates mutliple animals at once and they find food and compete or something. It's not a game; it's an experiment, but I still think it would be fun to have.
closed account (S6k9GNh0)
Perhaps the human brain is something special. We seem to have the only ability to ask questions and learn from those questions. We are the only creatures that can write and talk in a known language. We are also the only creature that can make a C++ forum and debate philosophy. We are also a creature that can understand, modify, and recreate our own bodies (currently only to a certain extent). Unfortunately, we are also the idiots that can go into torturous war. We are the only creature that can possibly doom our Earth. We are the only idiots that can corrupt something meant to make everything easier.
I think the time given to simulate our brain is much too small and they're getting arrogant. Perhaps a much lesser creature that hasn't evolved as much as the human which process using much easier methods. I personally don't think that the brain can be simulated with simple algorithms. Also note that humans have free will. There is no computational method that can account for this, no matter how hard you try.
I think the time given to simulate our brain is much too small and they're getting arrogant. Perhaps a much lesser creature that hasn't evolved as much as the human which process using much easier methods. I personally don't think that the brain can be simulated with simple algorithms. Also note that humans have free will. There is no computational method that can account for this, no matter how hard you try.
Dogs can communicate, and so can several species of aquatic mammals, and probably apes (though I don't remember reading anything specific about them). The only reason dogs don't talk is because their vocal chords and mouth aren't adapted to produce the sounds of human speech.
I have to say, there are few things I find more arrogant than anthropocentrism.
I have to say, there are few things I find more arrogant than anthropocentrism.
| THE DOOR EATS LIKE A MISTY GIRL. ALL GUYS LOVE HOT, FAST GUYS. MISTY, DEAD CORNERS LOUDLY FIGHT A DRY, DEAD DOOR. WORK QUICKLY LIKE A GRIMY SIDEWALK. NEVER FIGHT A CIGARETTE. |
Epic. Especially line 2 >_>
Anyway, as for your the "human brain is special". Let's take this:
The human brain has billions of neurons. Let's say we take one of those, and replace it with a machine that does exactly the same thing. You would probably still argue that it is still a "brain". What if we keep doing this? When does the brain stop being "human" and become a "machine"?
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Sorry spent last hour or 2 speaking with computer AI result: it was still a computer though intelligent it was at it's roots billions of 0's and 1's darn
Interesting topic ...
Some thoughts on emotions. What is an emotion? Take fear for example. The brain receives the input that's compared to stored information and results in a situation that can harm the organism. Thus, signals the body with the flag "fear", which is a self-defense, self-preservation system.
Furthermore, considering neurons are never created, they just die, one should realise that the human brain is only taught (besides the unconditioned reflexes we are born with). If you have a computer that runs with a HUGE dbase, it can be programmed to have emotions.
Provide input (situation, circumstances) -> compare against similar situations and facts -> return the "fear" flag if the comparison result is true.
So, emotions are purely reactions of the brain at a conscious or unconscious level to external or internal factors (interpretation of electrical signals). Like someone already said, it's all in the algorithms.
Some thoughts on emotions. What is an emotion? Take fear for example. The brain receives the input that's compared to stored information and results in a situation that can harm the organism. Thus, signals the body with the flag "fear", which is a self-defense, self-preservation system.
Furthermore, considering neurons are never created, they just die, one should realise that the human brain is only taught (besides the unconditioned reflexes we are born with). If you have a computer that runs with a HUGE dbase, it can be programmed to have emotions.
Provide input (situation, circumstances) -> compare against similar situations and facts -> return the "fear" flag if the comparison result is true.
So, emotions are purely reactions of the brain at a conscious or unconscious level to external or internal factors (interpretation of electrical signals). Like someone already said, it's all in the algorithms.
<-imagines helios living in an secret underground lair' plotting to take over the world through the invention of a supercomputer that uses c++ or,, maybe helios++ :D
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The only thing in my basement is little g- Uh... I mean, uh... I don't have a basement.
closed account (S6k9GNh0)
So how do you guys suppose they code free will? For instance, why would a computer decide to make the post I just made? How would it partake in personality? How would a machine decide things for itself that isn't already stored in them or someone else put them in there.