Taking Offense

[IWishIKnew]

This entire thread has become about splitting hairs. The Bible doesn't preach "kill the infidels", the Quran does. That's a fact.

No terrorist I've heard about has not been of the muslim faith (and we're not going to talk about 10+ years ago...).

Nothing said so far is reason enough to not call them what they are, and they are muslim terrorists.

[Disch]

The Bible doesn't preach "kill the infidels", the Quran does. That's a fact.

That actually is not a fact.

Please quote the Qur'an passage you are referring to. You are certainly misinterpreting it and/or taking it completely out of context.



IWishIKnew... you are the perfect example of my point of the bias associated with such a term. You have already decided that Islam is violent and that it is dangerous. You already associate Muslims with Terrorists, despite them being two completely different things.

Your ignorance shows. And it is the kind of ignorance that common terms like "Muslim Terrorists" spreads.


PS:

No terrorist I've heard about has not been of the muslim faith (and we're not going to talk about 10+ years ago...).

See this:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/non-muslims-carried-out-more-than-90-of-all-terrorist-attacks-in-america/5333619


And stop watching Fox News. They're lying to you.

[Albatross]

IWishIKnew wrote:

No terrorist I've heard about has not been of the muslim faith (and we're not going to talk about 10+ years ago...).

Imma just leave these two three links here...
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/12/04/3599271/austin-shooter-christian-extremism/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Austin_suicide_attack
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_God_%28United_States%29

There's a difference between what we've heard of, and what actually exists.

-Albatross

[htirwin]

Do you suppose the disproportionately high number of Latino terrorist attacks correspond to actions of drug cartels such as Pablo Escabar?

Anyways, global research isn't a reputable source.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Globalresearch.ca

But I have to agree that we shouldn't censor the news in order to prevent possibly offending people.

I think the problem with Isamlic writings is that it suggests that no matter what the odds, and how outnumbered you are, you will win the war because you have god on your side. There is a lot of locker room style pep talking going on about war fighting. The religion encourages fighting against near impossible odds. But it's often the case that the mega underdogs have to result to guerrilla warfare and terrorism.

[Ispil]

...that wiki made my brain hurt looking at it for a mere 5 seconds.

[fabtasticwill]

The Bible doesn't preach "kill the infidels",

You're right, the bible never says anything about violence. Well, except for just reasons like:

Touching Mount Sinai while God was giving Moses the Ten Commandments (Exodus 19:13)
An ox that gores someone to death should be stoned (Exodus 21:28)
An engaged virgin and the man who lies with her in a town, together, since she did not cry out (Deuteronomy 22:24)
Giving one's "seed" (presumably one's offspring) "to Molech" (Leviticus 20:2–5)
Having a "familiar spirit" (or being a necromancer) or being a "wizard" (Lev. 20:27)
Cursing God (Lev. 24:10–16)
Engaging in idolatry (Deuteronomy 17:2–7) or seducing others to do so (Deut. 13:7–12)
"Rebellion" against parents (Deut. 21,18–21)
Getting married as though a virgin, when not a virgin (Deut. 22:13–21)
Sexual intercourse between a man and a woman engaged to another man (both should be stoned, Deut. 22:23–24).

If you do any of those you get stoned to death.

Okay, but at least the Qu'ran teaches hate right? The Prophet Muhammad said: “Allah will not be merciful to those who are not merciful to people.”
- Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 9, #473.

Maybe you should do a little more research before you criticize someones beliefs, IWishIKnew.

[Little Bobby Tables]

fabtasticwill wrote:

Your right, the bible nev

*you're. just so i can have the thread show up in my feed :D

[htirwin]

It's pretty dang hard to claim the Qur'an and other Islamic texts are not violent, but the Bible ( at least the old testament ) isn't exactly very peaceful either.

Please quote the Qur'an passage you are referring to. You are certainly misinterpreting it and/or taking it completely out of context.

[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."

http://quran.com/8/12

So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike [their] necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either [confer] favor afterwards or ransom [them] until the war lays down its burdens. That [is the command]. And if Allah had willed, He could have taken vengeance upon them [Himself], but [He ordered armed struggle] to test some of you by means of others. And those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their deeds.

http://quran.com/47/3-4

Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/052-sbt.php#004.052.177

And there are hundreds more similar quotes.

[naraku9333]

@htirwin
Have you considered context? The last quote specifically is (from what I understand) about end of times and should certainly not be taken literally. Again it all boils down to interpretation and if your looking for a hate filled interpretation to suit your needs you'll probably find one.

Also, for the record Mohammed did NOT hate or preach hate of the Jews.

[htirwin]

Have you considered context?

Cutting peoples heads and finger tips off because they are non-believers is violent in any context.

[fabtasticwill]

But Islam is not promoting violence much more than Christianity. If you rebel against your parents you get stoned to death, according to the bible.

[Disch]

@htirwin:

regarding: http://quran.com/8/12

The full context of this quote is referring to Muslims who commit apostasy. IE: Turning their back on the faith after pledging allegiance to Allah.

And yes, it's horrific, violent, and completely shitty... but it's more of a scare tactic to keep followers in line than it is a call to violence against non-believers or people of other faiths.

It's essentially the religious version of treason. And even in secular cultures, the penalty for treason has historically been extremely severe. Even in the US. I'm not trying to defend this viewpoint, as I agree it's horrible and violent -- but it does not call for Muslims to murder innocent people just because they don't believe in Allah

Some more context for you: http://quran.com/8/4-12

With a very key point highlighted:

Those are the believers, truly. For them are degrees [of high position] with their Lord and forgiveness and noble provision.

[It is] just as when your Lord brought you out of your home [for the battle of Badr] in truth, while indeed, a party among the believers were unwilling,

Regarding: http://quran.com/47/3-4

This is tricky as the context provided on that site does not clarify intent to my satisfaction here. At face value it does look very damning.

So I googled and found a Muslim scholar to cover this one for me:

http://islamnewsroom.com/news-we-need/329-yusuf-estes-correcting-quran-misquotes#5

The context of this verse was when the Muslims were to fight their enemies for their very existence. After thirteen years of endurance and patience, the prophet and his companions had to leave their home town of Makkah and to emigrate to Madinah. When the people of Madinah had welcomed him there and he was accepted as a leader there, the Makkans became unhappy. They wanted to eliminate Muhammad and his religion; and so they sent their army to root out Islam. And the crucial battle took place in Badr. It was just before this that Muhammad received the revelation from God to fight:

{And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.} (Al-Baqarah 2:190)

This meant that the Prophet and his companions were not to start the fighting; but to defend themselves against aggressors. That was how fighting was ordained; but we must know that once we fight, we fight to defeat the aggressors, so that we can live without fear of molestation and invasion; so that we can live in peace; so that justice is done. Remember God does not command any one to start fighting; rather He permits people to fight in self defence or for the defence of those who are attacked unjustly.

Again -- yes it's violent, but in this context it's about self-defense.



naraku9333 covered the other one, so I'll leave that alone.




I'm not saying these are great teachings. They're certainly violent, and they're actually pretty horrible (I'm not a fan of Islam). On top of their violence they are extremely easy to misinterpret, which is likely why Islam is so prone to extremist terror groups.

But there's a very big difference between the reality of these passages, and IWishIKnew's claim of the Quran teaching people to kill infidels.



What I will say is that the Quran was either horribly written, or was horribly translated, or both.

[Cody0023]

This kinda of reminds me of some of the articles I've read in which the media associates terrorism with muslims as opposed to other violent individuals.

[TheBeardedQuack]

I've only read the first page but with all this mention of political correctness and people seeming as if they're trying to get offended i felt like i should mention that in the UK last yeah over 300 subway stores removed the turkey breast and ham subs because ham isn't halal meat...
Do i need to say any more?

Enough people that don't eat non-halal meat decided that they're going to take offense simply because it's on the menu... apparently they don't realise that they aren't being forced to eat it, and if they want halal then every other meat subway did was stated as suitable.

If you want to go about being offended by the world then be leave everybody else out of it. I understand if someone states something against you personally, or your family or career, etc. That's fair enough.
The issue here is being offended because some people are different to you.

Just because other people want to eat "dirty meat" then why shouldn't you let them? If others don't want to believe in your religion or way of life then why do you want to force them?
And this is to everything... gay relations for example.
If it's not against you personally, stay out of it?

[naraku9333]

@SatsumaBenji
Form what I've read this has nothing to do with people being offended but the changing demographics of the areas where these stores are located.

[TheBeardedQuack]

I'm not good with being able to express my intention of opinions with words, but i hoped the main point of the rant would come across as "if it's not insulting you personally, don't leave it be," and i give a stupid example of what i believed to be the case of taking offense of non-halal meat because of religious beliefs (could be my ill-chosen source of media).
And just to clarify here i am most definitely not trying to say or imply anything offensive against anyone or any religion that ways only halal meat (or does anything else in a particular manor), I'm saying that what's worse than taking offense at everything is then trying to affect other people and what they do, because you don't like/believe it.

i think I've taken the original topic of "taking offense" as a bit more broadly under "taking offense, or not understanding... Then impacting others with your 'faults' "