How many professionals working in the field do *not* have a degree?
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closed account (Gvp9LyTq)
| Luke Leber wrote: |
|---|
| The professional connections and piece of paper are pretty much the only reasons to attend college in the CS pathway*. The "knowledge" that is taught is laughable to say the least. The 5 - 10 years after graduation (working in the real world) is when the real, useful knowledge comes. |
The US is a class based society. You may not believe it, but everyday people make prejudgements about who you are based on how you talk and dress. Learning how to act within a particular social class is very important. Employers can tell with a high degree of accuracy whether you have a degree or not.
Anecdotal story: A few days ago I had to go to a meeting with another person before we went in I suggested that he straighten his tie. He pointed out to me that one of our superiors comes to these meetings with a loose tie. He was right but that superior knows how to dress -- he wears $45 shirts and $60 plus dress trousers to work everyday. This kid comes to work in Walmart khakis and with a worn cheap shirt. He is completely unaware of the fact that his dress is different from his boss and he'll be judged as not management material.
When you go to college you learn things you don't realize and these things allow you to move freely withing a professional working class. Some may be able to fake it, but you'll never know if you are one of those who can fake it because your friends probably won't have the heart to tell you that your lack of formal education shows.
There was a gentleman who frequented this site for a few years. He would go on and on how his education at a "for-profit school" was just as good as a traditional education. Then he would complain how he was unable to find work even with his "degree". He did not understand the way our society works.
Just because you are smart enough to do the work doesn't mean you will be a benefit to the company. If you can't fit in you probably won't be hired, and even if you are you probably won't be promoted.
Last, college is not that expensive if you are careful. There are definitely affordable and respected state schools. Even if you question the education, an undergraduate degree from an accredited state school can get you into a good postgraduate program.
You can fight the system, but remember the system has been winning for a long time.
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The same classism that so many people who call themselves liberal want to fight, and want to give everyone the freedom to succeed? That's a joke. You can't have a dog-eat-dog, status quo, political paper society that wants to hold everyone's hand at the same time and help everyone climb to the top with them. So many people are lying to themselves in several ways -- thinking you can help everyone succeed with you while you try and push everyone over to get to the top -- and then saying we need to help those who are less fortunate than us, whether they are that way by choice, genetics, dogmas, upbringing, and probably a combination of all of those things.
One thing I hear about college often is that people say it's beneficial because of the "contacts" you can make there. What stops you from making contacts outside of college? With sites like LinkedIn, About.me, Twitter, Facebook, and endless social media, I'm astounded why some people still think they can only make business contacts or such by way of college tuition and such an arrangement. And the scarier part may well be that, if you are only attending college mostly for the "connections," how scarce is actual learning of information in college versus just "connecting?" Similar ways are known as the, "Who you know versus what you know," problems.
The poster above me has the idea right in several key areas, namely politics.
People argue that the "minorities" are less fortunate and thus deserve help. Isn't this against the entire dog-eat-dog construct? Why help a less fortunate person? To be nice? Then that's going against the very society we live in. Why argue it? If you don't want a dog-eat-dog society, don't spend thousands of dollars to get a piece of paper, learn some crap here and there, and mold yourself in to the "professional" caricature for "success" in society.
If one can't fathom the success in this society without formality and politics (classism, hierarchies, etc.), one shouldn't question the unfortunate who are doomed due to the very thing they're trying to achieve; it is self-defeating and hypocritical. If it's such a problem to not have a degree in the traditional idealization of a "job," perhaps you should work for yourself and set your own bar, standards, and professionalism, instead of letting someone set if for you? Honestly, with the state of the internet and technology these days, it's very hard for me to believe that more people aren't taking up work and business opportunities in the digital world, which are way more flexible than elsewhere. Hell, even freelance proofreaders are averaging over $11/per hour, and they don't ever need to even get out of their comfort zone. Some may not like the absence of human contact by communication being done more so over computer networks, but this "new way" may be the only way to truly "fight the system," seeing as it's becoming easier and easier to do nearly anything in front of a computer these days. I think large portions of society could use re-educating in many areas, mostly on their options of learning and all of the opportunities that exist to help them succeed without just considering a degree. So the question may not really be, "How to make college cheaper?", but, "How to make learning and improving myself in general cheaper?" The capability is there to make it both freer/cheaper and easier, more convenient and no less beneficial; the trouble is breaking tradition and formality, and doing it a different way.
One thing I hear about college often is that people say it's beneficial because of the "contacts" you can make there. What stops you from making contacts outside of college? With sites like LinkedIn, About.me, Twitter, Facebook, and endless social media, I'm astounded why some people still think they can only make business contacts or such by way of college tuition and such an arrangement. And the scarier part may well be that, if you are only attending college mostly for the "connections," how scarce is actual learning of information in college versus just "connecting?" Similar ways are known as the, "Who you know versus what you know," problems.
The poster above me has the idea right in several key areas, namely politics.
People argue that the "minorities" are less fortunate and thus deserve help. Isn't this against the entire dog-eat-dog construct? Why help a less fortunate person? To be nice? Then that's going against the very society we live in. Why argue it? If you don't want a dog-eat-dog society, don't spend thousands of dollars to get a piece of paper, learn some crap here and there, and mold yourself in to the "professional" caricature for "success" in society.
If one can't fathom the success in this society without formality and politics (classism, hierarchies, etc.), one shouldn't question the unfortunate who are doomed due to the very thing they're trying to achieve; it is self-defeating and hypocritical. If it's such a problem to not have a degree in the traditional idealization of a "job," perhaps you should work for yourself and set your own bar, standards, and professionalism, instead of letting someone set if for you? Honestly, with the state of the internet and technology these days, it's very hard for me to believe that more people aren't taking up work and business opportunities in the digital world, which are way more flexible than elsewhere. Hell, even freelance proofreaders are averaging over $11/per hour, and they don't ever need to even get out of their comfort zone. Some may not like the absence of human contact by communication being done more so over computer networks, but this "new way" may be the only way to truly "fight the system," seeing as it's becoming easier and easier to do nearly anything in front of a computer these days. I think large portions of society could use re-educating in many areas, mostly on their options of learning and all of the opportunities that exist to help them succeed without just considering a degree. So the question may not really be, "How to make college cheaper?", but, "How to make learning and improving myself in general cheaper?" The capability is there to make it both freer/cheaper and easier, more convenient and no less beneficial; the trouble is breaking tradition and formality, and doing it a different way.
closed account (3hM2Nwbp)
| You can fight the system, but remember the system has been winning for a long time. |
True. Sure what can you lose by trying though? Your "life" as part of the system. For many, becoming part of the system isn't even an option anymore. For others (like myself), we just enjoy a good fight. I couldn't think of anything more satisfying than watching the system crumble and burn knowing that I helped cause it.
| Honestly, with the state of the internet and technology these days, it's very hard for me to believe that more people aren't taking up work and business opportunities in the digital world, which are way more flexible than elsewhere. Hell, even freelance proofreaders are averaging over $11/per hour, and they don't ever need to even get out of their comfort zone. |
You do realize that I picked a low-quality example to make a point, right? Plenty of freelancers can work their way well above $11.00 an hour, doing various things like technical writing, audio transcription, data entry, etc. I heard of a woman who is a single mother and she makes nearly 25K a year just by doing business transcriptions ... less than five hours a day of work ... and she doesn't even barely have a high school diploma.
If you got the skills, bring them to the table any way possible, even if it means starting at $5.00 an hour or less ... I started at pennies, then dollars, and now I make hundreds a week easily and then some. I just gave one example and a low-quality one at that. If you think that's all there is to freelance work potential, you need to reconsider. Remember that the richest people in the world never work solely by the hour like a "normal job."
If you got the skills, bring them to the table any way possible, even if it means starting at $5.00 an hour or less ... I started at pennies, then dollars, and now I make hundreds a week easily and then some. I just gave one example and a low-quality one at that. If you think that's all there is to freelance work potential, you need to reconsider. Remember that the richest people in the world never work solely by the hour like a "normal job."
Anecdotal story: A few days ago I had to go to a meeting with another person before we went in I suggested that he straighten his tie. He pointed out to me that one of our superiors comes to these meetings with a loose tie. He was right but that superior knows how to dress -- he wears $45 shirts and $60 plus dress trousers to work everyday. This kid comes to work in Walmart khakis and with a worn cheap shirt. He is completely unaware of the fact that his dress is different from his boss and he'll be judged as not management material. When you go to college you learn things you don't realize and these things allow you to move freely withing a professional working class. Some may be able to fake it, but you'll never know if you are one of those who can fake it because your friends probably won't have the heart to tell you that your lack of formal education shows. |
I don't think this applies to CS. Where I am going to school, almost to no CS professors dress formal, and very few students do. And there seams to be a slight correlation with "poor" or less formal dressers tending to be smarter. If anything, in college, I find myself trying to dress down a little bit to better fit in.
If you look at major companies hiring CS students, you will find that most of them have a pretty casual dress code. Going to interview for a programming job at google might actually have a worse effect than going in jeans and a t-shirt.
And I cannot really think of any way that a programmer without a CS degree would stand out from one with a degree, except that the person with the CS degree has probably been exposed to a wide variety of subjects. Someone without a degree could have the same exposure, but on average, you would expect someone without a degree to missing some things; only because without having them as requirements, you will just focus on what you want to learn, and probably remain oblivious to subjects you hadn't thought of or that you have no use for. Then again, it's likely you won't need a lot of that stuff for the job anyways.
Regardless if you "need" a degree to be a better employee, having one nets you more opportunities, and a lot more pay. And it isn't necessarily as expensive to go to college in the US as many people think.
IMO, it makes real economic sense to get the degree. Besides that, it opens up doors to exciting career choices that might otherwise not have.
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I'm a "personal" without any official education in programing out computer science at all... closest I've got is a grade C in GCSE IT.
I got took on as electronics apprentice but I've spent all my time so far working on software... Also i have no experience in anything really, this is my first ever job. I've studied C++ since late 2012 as hobby, and started VB.NET pretty much when i started working since its an easier tool for user interface and serial interface (we need for what we use).
So i think that i show it is most certainly possible, the hard part is getting in, once someone's taken that first chance you can prove your worth... and strictly speaking you're gaining experience then for anything in future you may need.
EDIT: i put "professional" because i honestly don't consider myself an advanced programmer in the slightest... I'm competent in what i need for my job, and I'm still always trying to learn more in my spare time. (My boss certainly thinks I'm better at programming than him though, i know that much XD )
I got took on as electronics apprentice but I've spent all my time so far working on software... Also i have no experience in anything really, this is my first ever job. I've studied C++ since late 2012 as hobby, and started VB.NET pretty much when i started working since its an easier tool for user interface and serial interface (we need for what we use).
So i think that i show it is most certainly possible, the hard part is getting in, once someone's taken that first chance you can prove your worth... and strictly speaking you're gaining experience then for anything in future you may need.
EDIT: i put "professional" because i honestly don't consider myself an advanced programmer in the slightest... I'm competent in what i need for my job, and I'm still always trying to learn more in my spare time. (My boss certainly thinks I'm better at programming than him though, i know that much XD )
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