Programming, Piracy, and Morale
Hi guys, this is my first post. Many of my colleagues at work, we're all programmers, download software illegally. This to me seems very hypocritical, they want to get paid to make programs, yet they themselves download software illegally, even though there are free (as in free beer) alternatives.
On one hand, we get our salaries whether or not other people download our product illegally (we're a big corporation and it doesn't really affect the developers). Many famous DJs like Avicii and Afrojack illegally downloaded FL Studio (which costs around €700 and most bedroom DJs can't afford to pay that), and because they had the chance to use FL Studio to make music they now are super famous. I know for a fact that both of them have now bought legal copies of the program. When you think about it, downloading software illegally is exactly the same as going to the store and stealing something.
The thing that's bugging me is that programmers that download software illegally want to get paid to make software, and the example with the DJs shows that sometimes piracy can lead to something good, but at the end of the day however you look at it it's darn right stealing. I can't make sense of it all.
On one hand, we get our salaries whether or not other people download our product illegally (we're a big corporation and it doesn't really affect the developers). Many famous DJs like Avicii and Afrojack illegally downloaded FL Studio (which costs around €700 and most bedroom DJs can't afford to pay that), and because they had the chance to use FL Studio to make music they now are super famous. I know for a fact that both of them have now bought legal copies of the program. When you think about it, downloading software illegally is exactly the same as going to the store and stealing something.
The thing that's bugging me is that programmers that download software illegally want to get paid to make software, and the example with the DJs shows that sometimes piracy can lead to something good, but at the end of the day however you look at it it's darn right stealing. I can't make sense of it all.
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| Many of my colleagues at work, we're all programmers, download software illegally. This to me seems very hypocritical, they want to get paid to make programs, yet they themselves download software illegally, even though there are free (as in free beer) alternatives. |
This isn't really hypocritical. It just goes to show how nobody really cares about piracy and it's not really that big of a deal.
It's like this everywhere. Most of my friends are musicians and all of them (as in every single one of them without exception) pirate music.
| When you think about it, downloading software illegally is exactly the same as going to the store and stealing something. |
No it isn't. I really hate this analogy.
When you steal something physical, like a car... then the original owner of the car no longer has it. You are depriving someone else of something. That makes it shitty.
When you pirate digital media... then the original owner of the media isn't affected at all. They still have it just as they would if you never pirated it.
| The thing that's bugging me is that programmers that download software illegally want to get paid to make software |
These two points are separated by so much middle-man process that it's a strain to really connect them.
Software developers usually aren't paid per piece. IE: the sales of the software in no way pays the developer's salary. They are paid to perform a service -- to create a product -- which they do... then the company that hired them turns around and tries to regain their loss through selling it.
You could argue that piracy makes it more difficult for the product to be sold, and therefore makes it more difficult for programmers to get hired -- but when you look at the software industry, its rate of growth, and how healthy it is... the evidence simply does not support that point of view.
| but at the end of the day however you look at it it's darn right stealing. |
I disagree. Maybe the problem is you're looking at it wrong?
| No it isn't. I really hate this analogy. |
Software, just like goods at the store, is a commodity. Someone(s) spent money (however you measure it) to create it, and many of those someones would like some return on their investment.
When someone takes it without paying, it is morally equivalent to theft.
| When you pirate digital media... then the original owner of the media isn't affected at all. They still have it just as they would if you never pirated it. |
It is a significant issue in the industry -- any media industry -- sufficient that we all know about the ongoing efforts by media industries to stop it.
And the real evidence, in pure red and black, is that it significantly cuts into the bottom line -- which feeds right back into how much honest folk have to pay for their copies of stuff.
| Maybe the problem is you're looking at it wrong? |
| Duoas wrote: |
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| It isn't the media that's being 'stolen'. It is capital. |
closed account (z05DSL3A)
| When you think about it, downloading software illegally is exactly the same as going to the store and stealing something. |
While on a technical level the unlicensed use of software is copyright infringement and theft is dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it. They are covered by different laws, one being civil law the other criminal law.
When you use unlicensed software you are knowingly depriving the publisher of revenue which is tantamount to stealing.
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* in the UK at least
| Duoas wrote: |
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| When someone takes it without paying, it is morally equivalent to theft. |
Morality is subjective. ;P
Most of what I pirate are things I would never spend money on (IE: old movies, TV shows, and music). So any way you slice it, the people creating this stuff would never see any of my money. The goods they're offering simply aren't good enough to warrant a purchase from me.
That being said, I'm faced with 2 realistic scenarios:
1) Go without it
2) Pirate it
So let me ask... what is the tangible difference between those two?
The only thing that's different is if I go with #1, my life is slightly less enjoyable. Nobody else on the entire planet is impacted in any way by the decision.
| It is a significant issue in the industry -- any media industry -- sufficient that we all know about the ongoing efforts by media industries to stop it. |
I'm sure execs aren't thrilled about it... but frankly I don't really care. Software developers and artists who are actually creating it still get paid regardless. Maybe the end result is that the head of the company can't afford that 5th house on a tropical island. Cry me a river.
| And the real evidence, in pure red and black, is that it significantly cuts into the bottom line -- which feeds right back into how much honest folk have to pay for their copies of stuff. |
Bullshit.
After inflation... Software, music, and video games are less expensive now than they have ever been in the past.
EDIT:
To clarify -- I don't exclusively pirate things. There actually are a lot of games/software/music that I do buy legit.
Generally I go with whatever is more convenient. If it's easier to pirate something than it is to buy it, then that's probably what I'll do.
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closed account (z05DSL3A)
| Disch wrote: |
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| Most of what I pirate are things I would never spend money on (IE: old movies, TV shows, and music). So any way you slice it, the people creating this stuff would never see any of my money. |
| naraku9333 wrote: |
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| Only if the individual that illegally downloaded it would have paid for it given no other option. |
| Disch wrote: |
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| So let me ask... what is the tangible difference between those two? |
| The only thing that's different is if I go with #1, my life is slightly less enjoyable. Nobody else on the entire planet is impacted in any way by the decision. |
| ... Cry me a river. |
| [cussing and ranting about costs] |
You do realize that's also a false argument; paying for an inch of cloth is not the same as paying for the whole bolt -- and representing the two as equivalent is disingenuous.
| Grey Wolf wrote: |
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| My problem with that kind of logic is; you reduce the revenue stream of the owner of the IP |
But I don't, because it's not something I would buy anyway.
Here's the top of my torrent list with some notes:
http://i.imgur.com/1PsZiRy.jpg
EDIT: A note on BSG: I actually did buy that DVD for my parents.
Also a note on Avatar -- I would have bought that as well for my niece/nephew, but they're still too young. Maybe when they're older.
| Duoas wrote: |
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| You claim the 'right' to take things "given no other option"? |
No. I just don't feel guilty when I do.
| It might be worth my time to go take something of yours which I cannot obtain any other way. |
You can take whatever you want from me, as long as it doesn't deprive me of anything. You are welcome to any and all software/art/music/etc I make for free. I'm happy to hand it out.
Just don't take anything physically away from me so that I no longer have it. That would suck.
| Playing the red-herring, yes? I thought we were talking about intangible media. |
It's not a red-herring, it's my entire point. The media is intangible so it literally does not matter to anyone other than myself as to whether I pirate it or go without it.
| You've made my point. You only care about your own perspective, and you disregard the perspective of anyone impacted by your actions as discardable a priori. |
How does that make your point? Would Capcom Software somehow be better off if instead of pirating Megaman Zero, I had never played? They quite literally are completely unaffected.
| [cussing and ranting about costs] |
Calling "Bullshit" counts as cussing? Man... you guys are uptight. =P
| Welcome to the newest models for trying to recoup investments. |
How does this support your point? You just said pirating makes software more expensive for everyone... so I pointed out that was false. What are you saying here?
| You do realize that's also a false argument; paying for an inch of cloth is not the same as paying for the whole bolt -- and representing the two as equivalent is disingenuous. |
I don't see what you're getting at. Can you elaborate?
EDIT:
I'm just curious... but all you "piracy is the most evil thing since sliced bread" people... have you ever borrowed a movie/album/game from a friend? How is that any different from pirating? You're still gaining the media without having paid for it.
The only difference is my "friends" are all over the world and have a lot more stuff.
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I liked that last "worldwide friends" thing.
A lot of what I have pirated, I have afterwards bought.
I still didn't buy any movie (many of them air on TV at night, like the Saw series, or FnF, stuff I could see for free and record on a VHS or a DVD to later see anytime, not sure if that counts as piracy tho) or song (same, but for the Radios instead, and regular Cassette and CD) i have seen/heard.
I only have two games left to buy that I pirated and wouldn't feel ripped off from.
What could be my "pirate karma" level if I recorded movies and songs from TV and Radio at the right time, for free? Does it count as an "offer" provided by a TV or Radio station, or am I supposed to delete the recordings?
These piracy topics come up so often.
A lot of what I have pirated, I have afterwards bought.
I still didn't buy any movie (many of them air on TV at night, like the Saw series, or FnF, stuff I could see for free and record on a VHS or a DVD to later see anytime, not sure if that counts as piracy tho) or song (same, but for the Radios instead, and regular Cassette and CD) i have seen/heard.
I only have two games left to buy that I pirated and wouldn't feel ripped off from.
What could be my "pirate karma" level if I recorded movies and songs from TV and Radio at the right time, for free? Does it count as an "offer" provided by a TV or Radio station, or am I supposed to delete the recordings?
These piracy topics come up so often.
I've always found the arguments in favor of privacy to be... well, quite flawed. "I only pirate old things." "I only pirate bad things." "I only pirate things when it is easier than to pay for it." "I only pirate because the big wigs at the top don't deserve to get paid." "I pirate because software is intangible and the meaning of 'theft' doesn't apply."
Even after all of these arguments, you're left with a bit of a lingering point- where do pay instead of pirate? Where's the line? When the enjoyment of the game exceeds the price of payment? Then why are so many good games or songs pirated, even when they're new?
If every piece of digital software were freely distributed, the only remaining incentive to release such things would be to riddle it with advertisements and design towards a design that gets the most foot-traffic without caring whether people will keep enjoying that. It's already happening to music- musicians actually track Spotify song plays to determine which songs are the most popular, then create their songs to sound similar knowing that people who listen to one song are more likely to like another song that sounds similar than different. Combine that with advertisement-based revenue, and you have a recipe for what could only be described as... well, media-induced hell.
And in case you doubt the advertisement-based revenue idea, games are already doing it. Just play the game Sunset Overdrive- an entire series of character clothing is branded (specifically Vans). And that's for a game that you actually have to pay for- imagine how bad it would be if that ad revenue was the only way to make a profit.
Even after all of these arguments, you're left with a bit of a lingering point- where do pay instead of pirate? Where's the line? When the enjoyment of the game exceeds the price of payment? Then why are so many good games or songs pirated, even when they're new?
If every piece of digital software were freely distributed, the only remaining incentive to release such things would be to riddle it with advertisements and design towards a design that gets the most foot-traffic without caring whether people will keep enjoying that. It's already happening to music- musicians actually track Spotify song plays to determine which songs are the most popular, then create their songs to sound similar knowing that people who listen to one song are more likely to like another song that sounds similar than different. Combine that with advertisement-based revenue, and you have a recipe for what could only be described as... well, media-induced hell.
And in case you doubt the advertisement-based revenue idea, games are already doing it. Just play the game Sunset Overdrive- an entire series of character clothing is branded (specifically Vans). And that's for a game that you actually have to pay for- imagine how bad it would be if that ad revenue was the only way to make a profit.
| Even after all of these arguments, you're left with a bit of a lingering point- where do pay instead of pirate? Where's the line? |
That is the question, isn't it.
The thing is... the line is different for everyone. It's like I said before, morality is subjective.
I find a lot of people seem to let the law dictate their morals, which IMO is lazy, and a lot of times is bad judgement (the law is not always right). IE: Sharing music with friends is fine, but sharing online is wrong because the law says so.
| If every piece of digital software were freely distributed |
Who is saying that?
| It's already happening to music [snip] you have a recipe for what could only be described as... well, media-induced hell. |
Pop culture music went to hell long before internet piracy. It started going downhill when labels stopped taking existing bands and promoting them, and started crafting their own bands to be more marketable.
Quite honestly, I'm surprised the music industry still functions at all. It's completely broken.
Personally, I largely use Pandora as an avenue to find new bands, and then just get their stuff through other means (sometimes buying from them direct, sometimes pirating -- it all depends). But FM radio? Top-10 lists? Forget it. They haven't had anything worth listening to in decades.
| And in case you doubt the advertisement-based revenue idea, games are already doing it |
I don't doubt it at all. I've noticed product placement in a few shows and movies and stuff. I don't see why games would be immune to it.
Quite frankly... I'm amazed it isn't more rampant. I can't remember the last time I saw an internet ad or an actual commercial. How the hell else are marketers supposed to get their brand names out there?
| Just play the game Sunset Overdrive- an entire series of character clothing is branded (specifically Vans) |
As long as its not obnoxious or overbearing, I don't see the problem.
And if it is obnoxious, then it's a crappy game and you shouldn't be playing it. =P
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Well, the reason for bringing it up is the idea of people who "pirate everything." The only rational reason to pirate everything is a belief in freely distributed digital content, or some incredibly strong dislike for the distributer (which, by the way, rarely holds up ever since if there was an actual hate for the distributer then they would just purchase directly, which usually can be done). As for everyone else, it is just a matter of cost versus desire... but that makes another question:
If you draw the line through cost, why pay for anything that can't instead be pirated? Moral obligation?
If you draw the line through cost, why pay for anything that can't instead be pirated? Moral obligation?
| If you draw the line through cost, why pay for anything that can't instead be pirated? Moral obligation? |
Convenience is my biggest reason. Sometimes it's easier to buy something than it is to pirate it. Sometimes it isn't.
I actually somewhat frequently overpay for stuff because it's easier. Recently my friend turned me on to the new XCom and mentioned that you can get a 3-pack of games (one of which was XCom) for $5 online. But instead of ordering it and waiting for it arrive, I just paid $20 to buy the single game through XBox live.
My time is much more important to me than my money.
Well, I imagine you're not the only one, so we'll roll with one particularly thick line being "time." So, there are two ways to fix the time issue:
-Make it take longer to torrent
-Make it take shorter to get the game
With things like Steam, games are incredibly easy to get online for PC (it's just find it, pay for it, and download it right then and there). This is compared to console games that require disks... but those games are also available on those console's digital stores. Those stores aren't available without their premium online service (not sure on this one) which is a monthly fee, which... undoes the whole thing, really. It doesn't help that the download speed for those consoles is... well, shit (for the PS3, it took days to download things, and that's not hyperbole). What's left is... movies, TV, music, and older games. The consoles (Nintendo especially) are dealing with the older games issue with house-sold emulations and such, but those only go so far (their costs are all over the place). TV has you purchase both the DVR (which can be quite expensive), and the monthly fee for the service- a model that is outdated by most standards. Movies have you watch new ones in theaters, purchase them on DVD, or stream certain ones available on things like Netflix. However, Netflix lacks a lot of good movies, and DVDs have the issue of physical practicality. Theaters are... well, people do stand strongly about the "theater experience" for seeing movies, so those aren't quite as terrible.
Then you have music, which has all sorts of problems. For the most part, it is musicians being screwed by every source. Online streaming, online purchasing- they get hardly anything in the process. The only way they do make money is through album sales, which ruins them against the "time" argument. In that case, it doesn't matter how you get your music- it is either bad for the musician or incredibly inconvenient. As for that, I can't think of any decent solution that is practical.
-Make it take longer to torrent
-Make it take shorter to get the game
With things like Steam, games are incredibly easy to get online for PC (it's just find it, pay for it, and download it right then and there). This is compared to console games that require disks... but those games are also available on those console's digital stores. Those stores aren't available without their premium online service (not sure on this one) which is a monthly fee, which... undoes the whole thing, really. It doesn't help that the download speed for those consoles is... well, shit (for the PS3, it took days to download things, and that's not hyperbole). What's left is... movies, TV, music, and older games. The consoles (Nintendo especially) are dealing with the older games issue with house-sold emulations and such, but those only go so far (their costs are all over the place). TV has you purchase both the DVR (which can be quite expensive), and the monthly fee for the service- a model that is outdated by most standards. Movies have you watch new ones in theaters, purchase them on DVD, or stream certain ones available on things like Netflix. However, Netflix lacks a lot of good movies, and DVDs have the issue of physical practicality. Theaters are... well, people do stand strongly about the "theater experience" for seeing movies, so those aren't quite as terrible.
Then you have music, which has all sorts of problems. For the most part, it is musicians being screwed by every source. Online streaming, online purchasing- they get hardly anything in the process. The only way they do make money is through album sales, which ruins them against the "time" argument. In that case, it doesn't matter how you get your music- it is either bad for the musician or incredibly inconvenient. As for that, I can't think of any decent solution that is practical.
My main problem with all madia is that they are essentually stealing from me.
When I buy clothes? I can try them on, check it for damage, and if outside of carefully chosen store lighting it looks like crap — I get money back.
When I buy car? I can do a test drive, ask manager questions and if advertisement is misleading and manger is lying — I get money back.
When I buy the game? I buy a black box, and when I see that it is actually unplayable and all trailers are not actually correspond to the game and want to return it? See figure 1:
http://www.tmk.com/ftp/humor/see-figure-1.txt
When I go to the movie theater (or buy a movie DVD) and after 15 minutes I see that it is utter crap and advertisements are basically lying ("Innovative story" which is actually a ripoff from classics?) and immediately want money bacK? See figure 1.
Steam basically stopped me from pirating. Only games I pirate now are either those I am unsure if they are worth to buy (and those are either bought or deleted after several hours), or it is impossible to get legally: abadonware (try to get obscure PS1 game), those which are not avaliable outside specific country.
Actually half of my steam library (214 games now) are bought precisely because I played pirated version before (and likely would not buy it otherwise).
I got into several game series because I had a chance to play them for free. (I doubt I ever buy any Disgaea game if I didn't pirated first two games; and bought remakes later. Same for Tales of)
After Library Sharing, it is even better: I do not have to even pirate, because I can try a game from one of my friends! With PS4 game sharing It is even more awesome (do not have to buy copy of the game to play with someone)
Sadly there is a problem with movies: even if I buy one, I am still a pirate, bevcause I rip content (because my TV does not have a disc drive, nor internet access) and edit it (because I hate when companies are trying to guilt trip me with my money: http://i.imgur.com/GxzeV.jpg ). Online services is no good too, because I want to watch video in my player with codec chain I spend a day configuring and which gives me the best viewing expeience.
Similar arguments can be applied for music.
Basicly main problem for media is outdated distribution model.
Most responsible people pirates not because it cheaper, but because it is easier and actually gives you more.
When I buy clothes? I can try them on, check it for damage, and if outside of carefully chosen store lighting it looks like crap — I get money back.
When I buy car? I can do a test drive, ask manager questions and if advertisement is misleading and manger is lying — I get money back.
When I buy the game? I buy a black box, and when I see that it is actually unplayable and all trailers are not actually correspond to the game and want to return it? See figure 1:
http://www.tmk.com/ftp/humor/see-figure-1.txt
When I go to the movie theater (or buy a movie DVD) and after 15 minutes I see that it is utter crap and advertisements are basically lying ("Innovative story" which is actually a ripoff from classics?) and immediately want money bacK? See figure 1.
| With things like Steam, games are incredibly easy to get online for PC |
Actually half of my steam library (214 games now) are bought precisely because I played pirated version before (and likely would not buy it otherwise).
I got into several game series because I had a chance to play them for free. (I doubt I ever buy any Disgaea game if I didn't pirated first two games; and bought remakes later. Same for Tales of)
After Library Sharing, it is even better: I do not have to even pirate, because I can try a game from one of my friends! With PS4 game sharing It is even more awesome (do not have to buy copy of the game to play with someone)
Sadly there is a problem with movies: even if I buy one, I am still a pirate, bevcause I rip content (because my TV does not have a disc drive, nor internet access) and edit it (because I hate when companies are trying to guilt trip me with my money: http://i.imgur.com/GxzeV.jpg ). Online services is no good too, because I want to watch video in my player with codec chain I spend a day configuring and which gives me the best viewing expeience.
Similar arguments can be applied for music.
Basicly main problem for media is outdated distribution model.
Most responsible people pirates not because it cheaper, but because it is easier and actually gives you more.
| Ispil wrote: |
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| Well, I imagine you're not the only one, so we'll roll with one particularly thick line being "time." So, there are two ways to fix the time issue: |
You say that as if there's an issue that needs to be fixed. Things are so close to perfect as they are right now.
- Software and media industries are thriving
- Things are convenient and cheap/free to obtain
Where is the problem here? What needs to be "fixed"?
| Ispil wrote: |
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| With things like Steam, games are incredibly easy to get online for PC |
| MiiNiPaa wrote: |
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| Steam basically stopped me from pirating. |
Funny... Steam stopped me from gaming on my PC. The thing was like Malware -- always popping up when I didn't want it to and asking for updates. I had to install it to play Portal 2 -- but promptly uninstalled it after I finished the game and never looked back.
Now I pretty much game on my XBox and through free indie games I find online.
| MiiNiPaa wrote: |
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| http://i.imgur.com/GxzeV.jpg |
Hah! xkcd had a similar comic about DRM encoded music:
http://xkcd.com/488/
Though I think they came to their senses and stopped that crap.
People always try to find some just reason for circumventing the market. Whether they want to argue over the semantics of "stealing" or only getting "really old stuff". Most people aren't going to pay for something they can get for free for the same quality, end of story. You probably won't even be prosecuted for illegal downloads either, just I letter from your ISP telling you to stop or they'll drop you. I'm not against pirating, I'm just sick of certain people trying to rationalize there way out of being guilt free.
| I'm not against pirating, I'm just sick of certain people trying to rationalize there way out of being guilt free. |
I'm not convinced it's rationalizing. I genuinely don't think I'm doing anything morally wrong.