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Living in ISIS: Scary
| most Americans hate every Islamic person because of 9/11. If they do say something, then everyone thinks they are a terrorist plotting to destroy USA. |
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| htirwin wrote: |
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| I don't know anything about the Qur'an, but in the old Testament, God, ordered and condoned a heck of a lot of violence/mass slaughter of innocent people, condoned slavery, said it was fine to sell your daughter into slavery, etc. |
Old Testament is more Judaism than Christianity. Christianity is the teachings of Christ, which means the New Testament.
That said... even the Old Testament has nothing on the Qur'an. Read some of it sometime. It's scarey.
| AceDawg45 wrote: |
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| yeah, but have you ever met one of those extremist Christians? There are a couple in my school and they practically hate you if you are gay or are atheist. |
People are people, and you can have all different types of people in all different types of faiths. You can have extremist Christians just as you can have extremist Muslims. A person's faith does not matter to me, only their actions and behavior do.
It's like I said... I'm not trying to speak of any people -- just of the faith itself. The writings and teachings of Islam are more violent than the writings and teachings of Christianity. It's a more violent religion. I'm not saying this to be prejudice... nor am I saying it because I dislike Islam. I'm saying it because it's clear to me after having read excerpts from both books.
| Muslims in America (the normal, non-militant ones) don't really say anything if you are against something in the Qu'ran |
I know. I've said as much in a previous post. All the Muslims I've ever met personally have been extremely pleasant and I've gotten along with all of them. I hold absolutely nothing against them.
| due to being scared because most Americans hate every Islamic person because of 9/11. If they do say something, then everyone thinks they are a terrorist plotting to destroy USA. |
I don't think that's why. At least not with the people I've met. I just think they're generally good and accepting people and aren't concerned with pushing their beliefs onto you.
| IMO, the only difference between a radical Christian and ISIS is that Christians aren't killing each other. |
Well... that's kind of what I was getting at. Islamic extremists like ISIS/IS are kind of just doing what the Qur'an tells them to. The book states very clearly that people who do not follow Allah are to be killed. It's not a misinterpretation... it flat out says that clear as day.
Of course... certainly there's more to it than just that. They clearly have ulterior motives and likely are using the Qur'an as a tool/excuse to enact violence.
So again... it's people using the faith to be violent -- which can be done in any religion. But at the same time... Islam seems to make it easier. Which is probably one of the major reasons why that region (where Islam is so prominent) has been surrounded by war and extremists pretty much since it's inception.
The Qu'Ran doesn't actually endorse violence; in fact it endorses peace and forgiveness. The violent passages you've probably seen are taken out of context. In context, they are clearly about fighting oppressors and persecutors of Islam. The Qu'Ran says to kill anyone who persecutes Muslims, but to prefer peace over violence, never to attack people in their places of worship ("unless they attack you there"), and to forgive them immediately if they lay down their arms. The reason is because, like early Christians, early Muslims faced a great deal of persecution from other faiths, which is why Mohammed fled to Medina. Just look at how the early Islamic conquerors of southern Europe and Jerusalem treated their enemies. Again, Islam is violent right now but historically it has been more peaceful than Christianity.
That's just the New Testament.
| Disch wrote: |
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| Jesus's teachings are about acceptance, forgiveness, and loving your neighbor |
That's just the New Testament.
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| chrisname wrote: |
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| The Qu'Ran says to kill anyone who persecutes Muslims |
| Matthew 5 verse 39 wrote: |
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| But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. |
| chrisname wrote: |
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| Islam is violent right now but historically it has been more peaceful than Christianity. |
This isn't about Christianity vs. Islam anyway. This is about the prinicples of the Enlightenment vs. Islam. Those principles now supercede those of Christianity in the west, which has yielded pluralistic societies under secular governments. Until the Muslim world can abandon superstition and acknowledge some fundamental rights of man, their worldview will be incompatible with the west.
| booradley60 wrote: |
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| So your argument is that Christianity evolved out of its savagery and Islam regressed into it? |
Sort of, but where the entirety of Christendom once attacked Islam, what we have now is a few groups of radicals attacking everyone who doesn't follow their specific form of Islam (even other Muslims). I'm not defending Islam -- I don't like it -- but it's not worse than Christianity or Judaism (which tends to get a free pass because of the holocaust, but is currently every bit as bad as Islam).
| what we have now is a few groups of radicals attacking everyone who doesn't follow their specific form of Islam |
Not true. Many Islamic Nations are still in the dark ages. Women are oppressed and brutalized, there are public executions, harsh violent penalties for petty crimes, or even things we don't even consider crimes. For me, the oppression of women is one of the worst things. Women in some Middle East countries can get assassinated for going to school.
http://www.ted.com/talks/karima_bennoune_the_side_of_terrorism_that_doesn_t_make_headlines
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closed account (13bSLyTq)
Hi,
Using any sort of Atomic weaponry against an country that is NOT in official war is very frowned upon internationally speaking.
I have lived in plenty of countries both in West and in developing countries to freely create a sort of conclusion pertaining the world views upon America & its allies.
In developing countries people typically have very negative view of american foreign policy of war and its involvement of every way possible. The people tend to suggest america is thirsty for Oil therefore will kill to get the resource.
That already in the worlds views the act of unjustifiably using Super-weapons against an developing nation is not something that will change the image, it will more likely tarnish the image more likely, not to mention such weapons will cause more death of good than bad that may create more hate against america and cause more terror organisations to pop up as a result of more members joining and them using the nuking as a propaganda to gain more followers and more symapathy.
Using any sort of Atomic weaponry against an country that is NOT in official war is very frowned upon internationally speaking.
I have lived in plenty of countries both in West and in developing countries to freely create a sort of conclusion pertaining the world views upon America & its allies.
In developing countries people typically have very negative view of american foreign policy of war and its involvement of every way possible. The people tend to suggest america is thirsty for Oil therefore will kill to get the resource.
That already in the worlds views the act of unjustifiably using Super-weapons against an developing nation is not something that will change the image, it will more likely tarnish the image more likely, not to mention such weapons will cause more death of good than bad that may create more hate against america and cause more terror organisations to pop up as a result of more members joining and them using the nuking as a propaganda to gain more followers and more symapathy.
Religion tends to cause violence. Its not that religion is bad. Its just that when there's a lot of people differently interpreting things that are taken very seriously, things tend to get out of hand. Things like this also reinforce stereotypes about Muslims, and middle eastern people general.
| Religion tends to cause violence. Its not that religion is bad. |
I've always said that religion is good for the individual, but bad for the group.
There are a lot of extremely positive things that someone can draw from their faith. It can, and very frequently does, strengthen a person and give them confidence and the ability to endure hardship. That's an incredibly positive force.
On the other hand, when you have different groups of people with contradictory beliefs that are held so strongly that they're worth killing/dying for them, it leads to extremely negative things. Not always even necessarily violent things -- sometimes they're just oppressive in nonviolent ways. But it consistently happens.
The people that do religion right are the ones that don't impose their faith on others. They follow their guidelines and they let other people follow theirs. And really, most people (at least here in the States) are actually really good at that. The problem is... the people that are bad at it are more noticeable, louder, and have a bigger [negative] impact. So there doesn't have to be nearly as many of them for them to fuck things up for everyone else.
So no... religion is not all bad. But it's not all good, either.
An interesting quote I heard, which I have to paraphrase because I can't remember it exactly:
"Good people will do good things without religion.
Bad people will do bad things without religion.
But it takes religion for a good person to do bad things."
It's obviously an oversimplification, but it's interesting nonetheless.
| And really, most people (at least here in the States) are actually really good at that |
While I agree with that statement about people from the Northern states, I disagree with it when it comes to people in the South.
My family moved here to the South from New York, and, in NY, people don't give a shit about what religion you are. So, shortly after moving here, my mom dropped a bag of chips in the grocery store and slipped out "God dammit", and everyone within a 20 foot radius looked at her with hate and disgust.
(I think I mentioned this earlier in this thread - don't remember) I am openly Atheist, and I have lost a lot of friends (and chances at friends) due to it. They bring up God, and the conversation turns to that, and I just say awkwardly, "Oh, I don't believe in God". Their response: "Then get the fuck out of here, dumbass."
Well, yeah, same here (actually half are agnostic), but I am saying the past year I have lost friends
| While I agree with that statement about people from the Northern states, I disagree with it when it comes to people in the South. My family moved here to the South |
I will agree that it will depend on the region, though I think "the south" is too broad of a claim. You get into big southern cities like Miami, Austin, Dallas, etc and I'd wager it'd be closer to how it was for you in NY.
| I am openly Atheist, and I have lost a lot of friends (and chances at friends) due to it. They bring up God, and the conversation turns to that, and I just say awkwardly, "Oh, I don't believe in God". Their response: "Then get the fuck out of here, dumbass." |
Look at it this way.... if people have that kind of reaction, then you don't want to be around them anyway. Don't surround yourself with "be like us or fuck off" friends. Those kinds of people suck. You don't want them in your life.
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Also, you always have the option of being a wiseass and reacting to that with "is that what Jesus would say?" or something to that effect. Then you can preach about how Jesus was all about acceptance and forgiving, and a true Christian would not be angry at you, and instead would love you and pray for your salvation.
Then you can tell them that they are shitty Christians and that you know more about their faith than they do.
You can even bust out the famous quotes... "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"... and "judge not, lest ye be judged" to rub it in their face.
EDIT 2:
Of course... that's very antagonistic. You could give the same point across in a peaceful way to try and salvage the friendship.... but like I say... fuck those people.
And yes I see the irony in that statement. =P
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Just going to chime in here.
My grandparents are from England, parents have lived in USA, and Malaysia and I've lived in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Canada, The Netherlands. I'm no stranger to moving.
My philosophy is that if you don't like where you live, move to a more suitable country.
If you like big cars and lots of space, go to the USA.
If legal marajuana is the most important thing to you, go live in The Netherlands.
If free education is the most imporant, go to Sweden.
If you're a fan of a centralized economy, go to China.
If you want to live amongst civilized muslims, go to Saudi Arabia.
If you want to live with a bunch of radical muslims, go to the Islamic State.
There are radicals out there. If we recognize IS as a country, we can create borders and give them a home. Then all radicals can congregate in one place thereby making the rest of the world a better place. If they thrive on war and try to push their borders to attack the infadels, the UN, neighbours, other peace keepers, can keep them in check.
You don't need to agree with them, change them, or even like them. But they do exist, and I think the best thing to do is give them a corner of the world and agree to disagree. Of course, if they ever attack someone outside of their borders, that's a completely different ball-game, but until you draw borders, they aren't doing that.
My grandparents are from England, parents have lived in USA, and Malaysia and I've lived in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Canada, The Netherlands. I'm no stranger to moving.
My philosophy is that if you don't like where you live, move to a more suitable country.
If you like big cars and lots of space, go to the USA.
If legal marajuana is the most important thing to you, go live in The Netherlands.
If free education is the most imporant, go to Sweden.
If you're a fan of a centralized economy, go to China.
If you want to live amongst civilized muslims, go to Saudi Arabia.
If you want to live with a bunch of radical muslims, go to the Islamic State.
There are radicals out there. If we recognize IS as a country, we can create borders and give them a home. Then all radicals can congregate in one place thereby making the rest of the world a better place. If they thrive on war and try to push their borders to attack the infadels, the UN, neighbours, other peace keepers, can keep them in check.
You don't need to agree with them, change them, or even like them. But they do exist, and I think the best thing to do is give them a corner of the world and agree to disagree. Of course, if they ever attack someone outside of their borders, that's a completely different ball-game, but until you draw borders, they aren't doing that.
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Or we could just kill them all from the safety of jet planes and avoid the otherwise-inevitable warmongering that will bring death and destruction to whatever countries and peoples they decide they don't like.
AFAIK, ISIS is wholly a paramilitary group with no civilians, and that makes them fair game for cruise missiles and ICBMs.
AFAIK, ISIS is wholly a paramilitary group with no civilians, and that makes them fair game for cruise missiles and ICBMs.
| My philosophy is that if you don't like where you live, move to a more suitable country. |
You talk as if that isn't an extreme hardship for most people.
| Disch wrote: |
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| You talk as if that isn't an extreme hardship for most people. |
Moving internationally is not as hard as it sounds. I work in a department of 100 other software engineers. We hold passports of 31 different countries. We have lots of people who came from nothing. That includes Tanzanians, Ghanians, Sudanese, Pakistanis, Indians, Chinese, Romanians, Lithuanians, Turks, Tunisians, Iranians, amongst others.
The good thing with this, is that I don't think ISIS is big on taking hostages. At least, I haven't heard anything about it. They just kill people instantly. And, they don't kidnap people for slavery.
I found this post on Reddit a week ago, which was a video posted on the internet by ISIS themselves, which was just them video taping themselves murdering people. And the sad thing is, they were treating it as if it were a GTA or Saints Row game. Just plow through pedestrians, shooting people for no reason as they drive by, stabbing random bystanders on the street... That stuff.
The sad(est) one though, was they found some Syrian military officer off duty, took out his wallet, shoved a picture of his family in the guy's face, said something in Arabic pointing at the picture, and then just started putting bullets through his back and left him to die.
It seems these people do not have any thread of a conscience.
I found this post on Reddit a week ago, which was a video posted on the internet by ISIS themselves, which was just them video taping themselves murdering people. And the sad thing is, they were treating it as if it were a GTA or Saints Row game. Just plow through pedestrians, shooting people for no reason as they drive by, stabbing random bystanders on the street... That stuff.
The sad(est) one though, was they found some Syrian military officer off duty, took out his wallet, shoved a picture of his family in the guy's face, said something in Arabic pointing at the picture, and then just started putting bullets through his back and left him to die.
It seems these people do not have any thread of a conscience.
| The good thing with this, is that I don't think ISIS is big on taking hostages. At least, I haven't heard anything about it. They just kill people instantly. And, they don't kidnap people for slavery. |