Area 51 - The Frantic Caller
Yes. I actually copy/pasted it from there rather than doing all that research again.
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@htirwin:
I skimmed the first two, but they didn't seem to indicate our technology was capable of manned interstellar travel. One of them mentioned that even if we could manage to fuel and supply a ship, it would still take 50 years to reach another system.
Maybe I could clarify.. when I say "travel" I mean transporting people. Obviously we can throw probes out there (we already have), but supporting life for the duration of that trip is a much bigger challenge. And shortening the trip so the passengers don't die of old age before they get there is an even bigger challenge.
AFAIK neither of those challenges have been overcome yet.
EDIT:
@htirwin:
I skimmed the first two, but they didn't seem to indicate our technology was capable of manned interstellar travel. One of them mentioned that even if we could manage to fuel and supply a ship, it would still take 50 years to reach another system.
Maybe I could clarify.. when I say "travel" I mean transporting people. Obviously we can throw probes out there (we already have), but supporting life for the duration of that trip is a much bigger challenge. And shortening the trip so the passengers don't die of old age before they get there is an even bigger challenge.
AFAIK neither of those challenges have been overcome yet.
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I wouldn't say it's impossible, given current technological advancement, to get someone to another solar system, just extremely difficult, non-practical, and mostly pointless.
I mean, the extra resources, cost, and effort to actually get a person there would be potentially mind bogglingly enormous. The chances of their survival would still probably be at least fairly low.
The probe mission itself would have a mind bogglingly enormous cost.
But even if we do get someone there, by the time they get there, they would most likely be very weak, possible sick, and have aged about 50 or more years.
Another issue in general is that just getting there is one thing, but making it worth while is another. We don't want this mission to be like so many others, where we get a fly by, take some long distance pictures of a some planets, and that's it. We need to land and explore each planet in depth and send back images. Ideally the probes would be there for many many years to explore and send back data. I think this is the most important thing to get right, because if we are going to spend trillions of dollars on a space mission, we are probably not going to do it often. We have to make the first one worth it.
I mean, the extra resources, cost, and effort to actually get a person there would be potentially mind bogglingly enormous. The chances of their survival would still probably be at least fairly low.
The probe mission itself would have a mind bogglingly enormous cost.
But even if we do get someone there, by the time they get there, they would most likely be very weak, possible sick, and have aged about 50 or more years.
Another issue in general is that just getting there is one thing, but making it worth while is another. We don't want this mission to be like so many others, where we get a fly by, take some long distance pictures of a some planets, and that's it. We need to land and explore each planet in depth and send back images. Ideally the probes would be there for many many years to explore and send back data. I think this is the most important thing to get right, because if we are going to spend trillions of dollars on a space mission, we are probably not going to do it often. We have to make the first one worth it.
| I wouldn't say it's impossible, given current technological advancement, to get someone to another solar system, just extremely difficult, non-practical, and mostly pointless. |
By the way, on the whole concept of the "influence" that these aliens had on early humanity... I recommend that you read Guns, Germs and Steel by Diamond. It is very descriptive on its take of humanity- it attributes pretty much what you would consider manipulation by aliens (the fact that Europe ended up being a great technological center while Africa and the Americas did not reach quite such a high point in that time, et cetera) to be a result of the composition of the Earth, the climate at the time, et cetera. It does, however, lack a sociocultural aspect. Taken in accompaniment with other works, and you can get a fantastic understanding of how societies developed in their particular fashions without external influence.
As for the "multiple concepts by unconnected peoples at the same time" issue? The archetypes that fill so many modern myths? Well, I'd rather believe in a collective unconscious than foreign meddling. Ironically, the concept of a collective unconscious can possibly be measured without treading on any god-alien-controller's toes.
As for the "multiple concepts by unconnected peoples at the same time" issue? The archetypes that fill so many modern myths? Well, I'd rather believe in a collective unconscious than foreign meddling. Ironically, the concept of a collective unconscious can possibly be measured without treading on any god-alien-controller's toes.
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| The second closest star is 4 ly away. In order to get someone there within 75 years, you'd need to accelerate them to roughly 16000 km/s, or 57.6 million km/h. The current speed record of an unmanned probe is just over a quarter of a million km/h. |
Why do you think this is not possible? Reaching that speed is the easy part. It does require a lot of fuel. Protecting/keeping the health of the passenger is the hard part. I guess I never considered the G-force factor. I admit I don't know exactly how that factor would contribute to the challenge.
How do you expect to avoid hitting anything with a ship large enough to hold a significant amount of people and supplies in that fast of a travel?
The thing with fuel is that it's heavy... so you need extra fuel to launch it into space. The heavier the payload, the more fuel you need... and the more fuel you have, the heavier the payload is.
Ultimately, there's a finite threshold of how much fuel we can launch into space. Eventually we get to a point where we're hauling so much weight that no amount of fuel is going to get it off the ground.
So either we make hundreds of individual trips into space to carry the fuel up in sections.... or we need a better/lighter/more efficient source of fuel.
This. Not to mention at such high speeds even tiny objects are extremely dangerous.
Ultimately, there's a finite threshold of how much fuel we can launch into space. Eventually we get to a point where we're hauling so much weight that no amount of fuel is going to get it off the ground.
So either we make hundreds of individual trips into space to carry the fuel up in sections.... or we need a better/lighter/more efficient source of fuel.
| How do you expect to avoid hitting anything with a ship large enough to hold a significant amount of people and supplies in that fast of a travel? |
This. Not to mention at such high speeds even tiny objects are extremely dangerous.
Objects even as large as a grain of sand are very rare in interstellar space. We would have to expect there is a chance of hitting something that size though. This is all discussed in the scientific literature on the subject. There is no point arguing with me about it since I am not the source of information, I am just relaying what I have read.
Don't forget that objects of a very small size can also be catastrophic if they hit basically any of our space objects including the space station, the moon missions, the probes we have sent, etc, all of which have traveled or are traveling though much more "dangerous object filled" areas.
The legitimate obstacle is how to repair the shield as it gradually accumulates damage from interstellar dust and gas. But this is not at all a deal breaker.
I think some of you have a misunderstanding about space. You do not have wind/ resistance, you do not have a lot of obstacles. Space is vast, and objects are far and in between.
Don't forget that objects of a very small size can also be catastrophic if they hit basically any of our space objects including the space station, the moon missions, the probes we have sent, etc, all of which have traveled or are traveling though much more "dangerous object filled" areas.
The legitimate obstacle is how to repair the shield as it gradually accumulates damage from interstellar dust and gas. But this is not at all a deal breaker.
I think some of you have a misunderstanding about space. You do not have wind/ resistance, you do not have a lot of obstacles. Space is vast, and objects are far and in between.
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I can agree with that. I also do not think traveling to another solar system with the intent of colonizing, or attacking a planet is practical. Maybe there will be some breakthroughs in physics that make it easier, but I wouldn't bank on that helping too much.
I can't rule out the possibility though that we might be visited by an interstellar probe.
I mean, if you think about it, AI is the real key to sending a probe to another solar system. We could do it pretty cheap too if we didn't care that it takes 1,000 or more years before it get's there. But nobody really wants to support anything that they and their children will die before seeing the results of.
With the right technology, we could send artificially intelligent self replicating probes off to colonize the galaxy and if designed and engineered sufficiently well, then some time long after their creators have died, they would have explored quite a bit.
I don't think it is unlikely that another intelligent species with enough technological advancement might attempt to accomplish something like this.
I can't rule out the possibility though that we might be visited by an interstellar probe.
I mean, if you think about it, AI is the real key to sending a probe to another solar system. We could do it pretty cheap too if we didn't care that it takes 1,000 or more years before it get's there. But nobody really wants to support anything that they and their children will die before seeing the results of.
With the right technology, we could send artificially intelligent self replicating probes off to colonize the galaxy and if designed and engineered sufficiently well, then some time long after their creators have died, they would have explored quite a bit.
I don't think it is unlikely that another intelligent species with enough technological advancement might attempt to accomplish something like this.
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| I can't rule out the possibility though that we might be visited by an interstellar probe. [snip] I don't think it is unlikely that another intelligent species with enough technological advancement might attempt to accomplish something like this. |
Aliens having technology for an interstellar probe... sure.
Aliens actually attempting it... sure.
It actually finding us... not likely. See earlier posted numbers -- the universe is just too vast.
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| See earlier posted numbers -- the universe is just too vast. |
So, the question becomes "how likely is life?"
closed account (N36fSL3A)
I fail to understand how 9/11 has anything to do with world disasters.
(Only read the first page, forgive me if this was already answered)
(Only read the first page, forgive me if this was already answered)
Someone claimed the US Government knew when all disasters were going to happen. So according to his claim the government knew 9/11 was going to happen, as well as Hurricane Katrina, etc.
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closed account (N36fSL3A)
But I don't see why 9/11 is classified as a great disaster, worse things happen everyday.
| everyday |
He was maybe one when 9/11 happened. I still remember watching it all happen on television with my wife (fiancee at the time). Almost 3,000 people died in the events of 9/11 (in the towers and on the four high jacked players). I don't know what you deem a disaster, but I consider nearly 3k lives lost going about their normal days a disaster.
It was such a tragedy that even creators of fiction were compelled to make their characters affected by the event. Marvel characters especially since most are based out of NY. Even game developers of the Spider-man game moved it back in order to remove the towers from the game and put instead the lights shining into the sky to honor the lives lost.
It was such a tragedy that even creators of fiction were compelled to make their characters affected by the event. Marvel characters especially since most are based out of NY. Even game developers of the Spider-man game moved it back in order to remove the towers from the game and put instead the lights shining into the sky to honor the lives lost.
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closed account (N36fSL3A)
| were you even born when that happened? |
It's really confusing how
Come on now.
[Not supporting terrorist attacks or anything.]
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| Fredbill wrote: |
|---|
| Yes... I don't see the relevance there either. |
As the rest of your post just showed the relevance. If you had witnessed it and saw the destruction and devastation as it happened I think you would have a different opinion on it. Your attitude is the same as those who didn't live during the Holocaust saying it wasn't as bad as the survivors made it out to be. Actually it is proper I mention that here, because there are actually conspiracy theorists who claim the Holocaust never happened. Just like conspiracy theorists claim the events of 9/11 were orchestrated by our own government.
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9/11, from my vague memories of it, was terrible. and the watching the footage when i can actually absorb it... it brought tears to my eyes, especially when the second plane hit and caused even more confusion and death.
my favorite is when people say Bush had to have done it since you can fold a $20 bill to look like burning twin towers
edit: was there an update to the site? we can't report our own posts anymore
| claim the events of 9/11 were orchestrated by our own government. |
my favorite is when people say Bush had to have done it since you can fold a $20 bill to look like burning twin towers
edit: was there an update to the site? we can't report our own posts anymore
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