Who here acctually buys movies, music tv shows, e.t.c.

[Z e r e o]

But when the options are pirate the product or don't use the product, the manufacturer is at no loss.

Reverse the situation, If a person has the options of stealing a Mercedes from the manufacturer or don't use the Mercedes would the manufacturer be out of money if they steal it? To make it more fair lets say that the manufacturer gets all the parts for free. Would he still be out money?

Well yes he would he would still be out the labor, building maintenance, ect, ect. The same goes for the pirated media. Just because they don't necessarily buy anything doesn't mean that they don't lose money when someone decides to pirate the media/software instead of buying it.

What happens when like 50% - 75% of the population decides it is okay to pirate media and software?

Also you have to consider all those that if pirating wasn't available would have bought the game, CD or movie. When someone is given the option of getting something for free or having to pay for it, generally they will lean towards getting it for free wouldn't they?

[Dy7SLyTq]

What happens when like 50% - 75% of the population decides it is okay to pirate media and software?

then 50% - 75% of the population has decided its ok to pirate media and software
xkcd.com/703/

[ResidentBiscuit]

EndlessCode wrote:

Reverse the situation, If a person has the options of stealing a Mercedes from the manufacturer or don't use the Mercedes would the manufacturer be out of money if they steal it?

Uh is this not exactly what I said? Don't really see how this reverses the situation I provided.

EndlessCode wrote:

To make it more fair lets say that the manufacturer gets all the parts for free. Would he still be out money?

Fair != Reality.

In reality, parts to manufacturer a Mercedez are not free. They cost the manufacturer money. As you also pointed out, there are labor costs per vehicle as well. Shipping costs, storage costs, etc. All costs that happen PER product, because it's a physical product taking up physical space, and requiring physical force to move places.
This is NOT true for something digital. There simply isn't any physical that needs to be replaced or handled. I really don't see why this is so hard to understand.

We're not talking about someone pirating Windows Server 2012, then getting support from Microsoft for this server. In that case, yes Microsoft is definitely out money. Granted, this situation can never happen, but it's the only situation where pirating software leads to loss of money from the producer/manufacturer. Not to mention, revenue from support is where a huge percentage of software providers money comes from anyways.

[N36fSL3A]

The seller is not losing ANY money when digital products are stolen. When a disc from a store is stolen however, they do lose money. Digital products cost nothing to store. You can store them anywhere you want. Copying software from a friend does not hurt the dev in any way. Of course that's potential money they could be receiving, however there is no way for them to actually lose spent money.

------------------------------------
The only time I believe stealing is justified is if it's food. You can't live without food. If someone stole food from me and they really needed it I wouldn't be very angry. Now if they just stole it because they wanted it, I'd be pissed.

[LB]

@Lumpkin: potential money lost counts as money lost in general.

[Dy7SLyTq]

its still potential money even with actual physical objects. if i give away a sticker then i lost the potential five cents

[N36fSL3A]

People who pirate games often have no intention of buying the game itself. It isn't potential money if you didn't have a chance to earn anything in the first place. Pirates in general have a 'steal or nothing' mindset.

[TwilightSpectre]

Pirates in general have a 'steal or nothing' mindset

If there was no option to steal, would they still have not gotten it?

[Disch]

If there was no option to steal, would they still have not gotten it?

In my case, I would say Lumpkin is correct for maybe ~90 to 95% of the stuff I pirate.

If pirating weren't an option, I just would go without most of it. It's usually not worth the money.

[Z e r e o]

@Lumpkin

The seller is not losing ANY money when digital products are stolen. When a disc from a store is stolen however, they do lose money. Digital products cost nothing to store. You can store them anywhere you want. Copying software from a friend does not hurt the dev in any way. Of course that's potential money they could be receiving, however there is no way for them to actually lose spent money.

I don't mean this as a offense but you are much to young to have that much business experience and experience with money in general.

Also pirates are not out just to steal if that were true by your own definition you yourself have a steal or nothing mindset but just a few posts ago completely contradicted yourself.

Lumpkin wrote:

I don't know why you wouldn't buy movies. Not buying movies is kinda wrong.

I only pirate games to test them out, then I always buy them.

The argument that the people who pirate software would have never bought the software in the first place just is not true and it's naive to think that way in my opinion. Look at any major digital industry. The Music industry is a amazing example of it. Before piracy kicked in every single person went to the stores and bought the albums. Now days even with easy access like Itunes and such album sales have massively dropped, though to be fair piracy is not the only contributor but is a major one.

If you give someone the option of getting something for free without punishment for breaking the law (Because it is the law in most countries) they will mostly like take it or at least a good majority would.

What if there was a way to get groceries for free without having to pay for it. Would you say "Ohh I wanna support that Company so I am going to spend money I don't have to". Most people wouldn't and they would take what is given to them. Then guess what the industry collapses. That is what I fear in the long run is that piracy will become the "norm" and will become acceptable.


@ResidentBiscut

Is a game somehow different just because there is only 1 digital version of it? You say they aren't losing money because they don't have a physical product that can be stolen and lost to them. Which is true one person pirating a game doesn't prevent them from selling it and it doesn't cause the company any expense. But it still is a lose to them but not in the traditional sense like with something physical. It is a loss to the potential money they could have made. The potential money they are depending on making. I understand exactly what you are saying and you are right but I don't think you understand what I am trying to say.

Lets say in a hypothetical situation that a software releases and it costs lets say 2 million for (Developer wages, artists, voice overs, managers, licenses, advertising, ect) and 70% of the user base decides to pirate the software because it is a option instead of buying it and they end up making only 1 million and are in the red and the project goes bankrupt. Do you still think the company didn't lose anything?

I understand this is a controversial topic but I don't see how people can think pirating isn't hurting companies and not making them lose money.

[Disch]

EndlessCode wrote:

Then guess what the industry collapses. That is what I fear in the long run.

Businesses collapse, but art doesn't.

With the modern foundation of the internet, the possibility of music disappearing is ZERO. Even if every single record label and every company in the music industry folded overnight... new music would still be made and would be readily available to anyone who wants to listen.

If the same thing happens with the movie/television industries, we may not get to see blockbuster movies anymore, but we'd still get to see creative works on youtube or similar places.

Same thing with gaming industries. As much as I enjoyed Skyrim and Borderlands and all those other big-hit titles, I wouldn't shed a tear if the companies that made them vanished off the face of the Earth. Indie games would just step up to replace them.



In fact... a lot of cynics might claim that the death of these industries would improve the quality of the available material. The music industry in particular is horrific in how it stifles creativity by creating and promoting pre-packaged cookie-cutter musicians. I won't actually make this claim, but I just wanted to bring it up as a counterpoint.

EndlessCode wrote:

I understand this is a contraversal topic but I don't see how people can't think pirating isn't hurting companies and not making them lose money.

I agree with you.

But the difference is I honestly could not care less about any of the companies I pirate from. I would be perfectly fine if all of them went out of business tomorrow.

EndlessCode wrote:

The Music industry is a amazing example of it. Before piracy kicked in every single person went to the stores and bought the albums. Now days even with easy access like Itunes and such album sales have massively dropped.

Availability of digital media is one reason.

The spiraling quality of pop music is the other. People are buying less of it because it's been getting shittier. The blame for that aspect lies solely on the recording industry.

[Mats]

Anyone who thinks a non-physical product doesn't have associated costs should be listening to this thread rather than posting in it. I know people who work in the games industry and am involved somewhat in the music industry. All this sh1t costs money to make! Let's say if you make a piece of music. Someone has to invest in having the stuff to make the music in the first place. They spend their time making the music, just as anyone else spends their time in any other job, then you have to pay for advertising, for web space, for mastering. Most music that is released is losing money and it's only the bigger selling artists that keep record companies in business. It's a similar story for games (even if they are not released in physical form).

[N36fSL3A]

Annnddd no one said that. We said that it costs nothing to the dev who produces a product when pirates digitally steal their game. Reread the topic to know what I'm talking about (of course no offense or anything, Wasn't meant to be bladed.).

[Cubbi]

The Music industry is a amazing example of it. Before piracy kicked in every single person went to the stores and bought the albums.

Not quite, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Taping_Is_Killing_Music

(unless you're talking about the time before tapes)

(speaking of which, I believe, my first major purchase on my own money was a dual-deck recorder. Granted, on the same trip I bought a Queen cassette tape, even though I had those songs already, just cause they were cool)

[BHX]

Lumpkin wrote:

We said that it costs nothing to the dev who produces a product when pirates digitally steal their game.

There is more cost to game development than just the money to publish the game. Every penny they put into the game's development, publishing, and marketing has to be made back by the sales of the game or the company will back off on new ideas and fall back to what they think is a guarantee until ultimately having to close their doors.

If a company can't make back the money the put into a game they will start letting staff go to slow the money they put out. Next they will stop taking risks by publishing new original IPs and instead fall back on games that are guarantees (COD, Sonic, Mario, Pokemon, for example). If they keep losing money without making it back, they will end up closing their doors where companies will buy their IPs and likely ruin them more or just put them to rest. Anyone remember the Thrill Kill game? A company bought the IP and declared it too violent and put it away and it only saw the light of day after the original team leaked the game to the net.

Let's do two separate scenarios according to your argument of no one gets hurt if there is no physical thing to steal.

Scenario 1:
I hire a small team of programmers, artists, and musician with the catch that we are paid from the money gained by the games sold. If the games are pirated that means my team gets no compensation for their services and will most likely not work for me again.

Scenario 2:
I'm a AAA company putting it on Steam so I have already paid the team up front and pay a marketing staff to make a campaign in order to draw a following. If copies are pirated (no physical disc to steal) (ie 20 copies are sold and 10 are pirated then there are 30 copies out of the game) so if it sells poorly or is heavily pirated I wouldn't make the money back that I put into making the game. This loss of money may result in me either having to let staff go to save money, make fewer games or smaller games, or even go as far as closing my doors.

_{Yeah, I'm kind of back, when I'm not on GD.Net or Cprogramming.com or working on my own projects (yes, I actually have started a few personal projects).}

[Mats]

Annnddd no one said that. We said that it costs nothing to the dev who produces a product when pirates digitally steal their game. Reread the topic to know what I'm talking about (of course no offense or anything, Wasn't meant to be bladed.).

This shows a complete lack of understanding of how business works. =/

[giblit]

I think pirating is wrong but if they are like any other business they add the expected theft into their prices.

The main prices of things are these if I remember from economics:

1) Price to manufacture ( labor , materials )
2) Price to advertise
3) Theft , damaged , ect..
4) Profit ( revenue )

[N36fSL3A]

Here's 2 quotes.

Disch wrote:

But the difference is I honestly could not care less about any of the companies I pirate from. I would be perfectly fine if all of them went out of business tomorrow.

SGH wrote:

I used to pirate stuff when I was 14-15, I used to have the "I'll never pay for this!"-mind.
Now that I'm 18, I've bought back all the things I thought deserved money.
Basically 90% of the games I pirated.

Most pirates have this mindset. If they can't get the game, they just do without. It isn't potential money, the pirate most likely wouldn't buy the product if they couldn't buy it.

This shows a complete lack of understanding of how business works. =/

I very much understand how business works.

BHXSpecter wrote:

If a company can't make back the money the put into a game they will start letting staff go to slow the money they put out. Next they will stop taking risks by publishing new original IPs and instead fall back on games that are guarantees (COD, Sonic, Mario, Pokemon, for example). If they keep losing money without making it back, they will end up closing their doors where companies will buy their IPs and likely ruin them more or just put them to rest. Anyone remember the Thrill Kill game? A company bought the IP and declared it too violent and put it away and it only saw the light of day after the original team leaked the game to the net.
)

How are they losing money if the pirates had no intention in purchasing the product?

I'm a AAA company putting it on Steam so I have already paid the team up front and pay a marketing staff to make a campaign in order to draw a following. If copies are pirated (no physical disc to steal) (ie 20 copies are sold and 10 are pirated then there are 30 copies out of the game) so if it sells poorly or is heavily pirated I wouldn't make the money back that I put into making the game. This loss of money may result in me either having to let staff go to save money, make fewer games or smaller games, or even go as far as closing my doors.

If your sells poorly then the game just sucks. If people actually wanted the game enough to buy it, then they'd just buy it instead of pirating. Pirating has [close to] nothing to do with it.

_{^{Oh yea, wb BHX.}}

[maeriden]

Most pirates have this mindset. If they can't get the game, they just do without.

^This
If I can afford to buy it and it's at the top the list of things I want, I'll buy it regardless if I pirated it before.
If I can't afford it, I'll pirate until it comes its turn to buy it.
If I can't afford it and can't pirate it, I do without until its turn comes.

My excuse for not feeling a thief is that I plan to buy everything eventually.

[Z e r e o]

I thought this would be a good thread to for me to join in on the lounge after a year of lurking in the shadows, but ohh boy I couldn't have been more wrong. I think it might be better to stay away from this part of the forum.

I will not continue to contribute to this debate because I really don't want to argue business with a 13 year old who has absolutely no business experience.

Though would like to leave some parting advice for you Lumpkin before I go. I know you are young and I know how young kids can act (I have two of them).

But sometimes you need to learn to listen to those who have more experience in the matter then you do. I don't know you and you might be a amazing programmer and very bright but you are still only 13 and there are a lot of things that you just don't have life experience in yet and business is one of them. It's kind of like saying I am a programmer and debating someone in programming without ever having coded.

It is not one of those things that you can really read about on the internet to figure out, you have to actually live it. I have owned two businesses in my lifetime and you really don't know what business is about until you have had to run one.

This is not to somehow put you down or make a fool of you. This me trying to help you by trying to let you know that you don't always have to have a opinion on something. Sometimes it is much better to keep quite and and listen and learn.

Or as the saying goes "Better to Remain Silent and Be Thought a Fool than to Speak and Remove All Doubt"

Anyways think I will go back to lurking in the shadows wish everyone the best of luck.