Giving Answers

[Duthomhas]

Because he's a beginner and you are not, and this way you can put emphasis on the information he needs.

And teach him only half of what he needs to know?

You assume again to know what he needs -- such knowledge of the inner workings of other people's minds continues to astound me.

As someone who has studied actual pedagogy, instead of the armchair variety, I know that the difference between a beginner and one who is not has more to do with the ability to find and process information than anything else.

How much easier does it get than to have a direct link to a complete explanation of what he needs to know to understand his problem?


BTW, you're still on my ignore list. I'm responding to your valid argument. (Notice, for example, how I've ignored the nonsense about redirection. The horrors. On the internet, no less!)

[Catfish666]

How much easier does it get than to have a direct link to a complete explanation of what he needs to know to understand his problem?

The direct link is a redirection which will become useless if the original site goes down.
Also, by providing the explanation in your own words, you tailor it to the OP and his code.

[BHX]

I can solve this real fast. If you have issues with how other users on here give answers, then stop trying to help beginners and going to the thread and you will never have to see it again. Otherwise, suck it up and stop arguing over what is best for who. Everyone is different and some can't learn until they are given the answer while others don't want the answer but just a general direction. Truly sad to see three pages of experienced programmers arguing over something so stupid and pointless as giving beginners answers. Honestly, if the users here are so 'annoyed' about it then don't go in the beginner thread. Makes no sense to me, this is like being annoyed by drunks and then going to work in a bar.

[Garion]

Either giving or not giving the answer can be a valid approach depending on the situation or setting.

If it's a co-worker who always asks you a particular flavor of question that they should be able to figure out by reading about a particular subject then I wouldn't give them the answer. Just point them to the reference material.

An internet forum should be more lenient. A person who really wants to learn will learn even if they are given the answer. It may shorten the time it takes them to learn because they won't have to struggle through deriving the solution entirely by themselves or having a solution to work towards.

I'm pretty sure that's how science in general is performed. People build upon the previous generations knowledge. Math could be another example, how many of you use algebra in your daily computer tasks? How many of you were forced to derive the algebraic formulas yourself without help? I bet many people never even bothered learning algebraic proofs and instead just utilize the pre-solved formulas and just accept it because they are too busy solving other problems.

If a person is trying to learn you can give them the answer, but the answer isn't always the most important aspect of a problem. The how you arrive at the answer is the most important thing. I'd be inclined to give a person an answer on a forum and if they asked for clarification of a certain part then you would know they are at least trying to learn instead of just taking the solution and running with it.

Anyways enough of my soap box, I'm quite a beginner at programming so I hope I didn't offend anybody from giving me answers in the future ;p

[G30GNwbp]

Maybe I don't remember correctly, wasn't the original argument that started this war between Duoas and Catfish over whether it was dangerous to use system("Pause")? I think they have been fighting for 18 months now. I have actually started to look forward to it.

So BHXSpecter, I doubt that either one of them really cares about this subject they are just arguing because they hate each other.

[Duthomhas]

Catfish wrote:

The direct link is a redirection which will become useless if the original site goes down.

Somehow, repeating one side of an argument enough times invalidates any prior refutation.

BHXSpecter wrote:

I can solve this real fast.

Oh? By presenting one side of an argument?

I claim that I am giving an answer by posting a link to the answer.

You're telling me that my response is illegitimate. And I have no right to be annoyed that user is unwilling to click and read a link.

As already noted above by Disch, it is often patently obvious that user didn't even bother to read it. The proof is in the pudding: after a cut-and-copy of the link's text, user is satisfied with the answer!

I'm here to help people who want to learn. And I have no obligation to pander to anyone else, or to have nice feelings about it. So you suck it up.

BHXSpecter wrote:

Makes no sense to me, this is like being annoyed by drunks and then going to work in a bar.

The bar isn't the only place you'll find drunks. I live on a road with several liquor stores. I hate them. It's scary the way some people drive in and out of them. And I have every right to be annoyed by their behavior.

So, how does this argument relate, again?

Garion wrote:

Either giving or not giving the answer can be a valid approach depending on the situation or setting.

Thank you.

A person who really wants to learn will learn even if they are given the answer.

Hmm, true point, that.

Doesn't mean I'm going to start posting straight-up answers. My experience has taught me that people are much more reward by working for it than to otherwise. And I try very hard to pay attention to how much is too much or too little.

It's still annoying when someone else just posts an answer under you. Especially when that answer has other (not necessarily related) issues that I don't think newbie needs to be taught.

Truly sad to see three pages of experienced programmers arguing over something so stupid and pointless as giving beginners answers.

When experienced people argue something, that usually means something important lies underneath. It is foolish to discount it as nonsense.

[Catfish666]

Duoas wrote:

Somehow, repeating one side of an argument enough times invalidates any prior refutation.

/me: the links become useless if the sites go down.
/you: it's unlikely that the sites will go down, and it's better to let them extract the information they need.

I don't really disagree with your comments, that I digested above, however I'm unsure if they're a "refutation" of what I said.

If the sites do go down, the links will become useless.
This can be dealt with elegantly by providing the link and copy-pasting the paragraph most relevant to the OP.

[Garion]

Not trying to add fuel to the fire here, but I've found this website here incredibly useful for looking up information on defunct websites.

It's basically an archive of the internet started back in 1996 and continues until today. Obviously it doesn't have everything but a lot of high traffic webpages (like tutorials) are probably archived. (I even find some interesting low traffic pages from player made game pages that no longer exist)

Behold.. The Internet Wayback Machine

http://archive.org/web/


For example. This is what the pointers tutorial looked like on October 29, 2000

http://web.archive.org/web/20001029004131/http://www.cplusplus.com/doc/tutorial/tut3-3.html

[BHX]

@Duoas
Wow, you really do like just having 'who's dick is bigger' arguments.

Okay, I'll oblige you. I've had friends that have been on both sides. I've had some that were spoon-fed and can't code to save their lives, I've had some that were spoon-fed and are well paid programmers. On the opposite side I've had some that were just given general direction and couldn't figure it out so they gave up, and others that got it and found the solution. You can be annoyed, but arguing over this is a waste of time because every case is different and you can't say one way is better than the other, but since you want to keep measuring yourself you can go right ahead, but I'm guessing 1cm.

[Duthomhas]

Now you're just being crude and rude.

I've not ever denied your POV. But you're here telling me my POV is...

oh wait, now you're agreeing with me?


Screw off.

[BHX]

When experienced people argue something, that usually means something important lies underneath. It is foolish to discount it as nonsense.

Not discounting it as nonsense, I'm discounting it as utter nonsense. Experienced people? Politicians are experienced in politics and they are a bunch of dumbasses. Experience means you know the language as you have learned it, doesn't mean you know shit about how to teach it or how others learn it.

Also, I'm not agreeing with you because you can't even make up your mind about what your point of view is. Your first two posts showed that. You posted about how each one should be tailored accordingly and then double posted that you hated those who wanted spoon-fed which negated your entire 'tailored accordingly argument.

Duoas wrote:

I think it is important to tailor an answer appropriately. Sometimes an answer will involve partial solutions.

Duoas wrote:

Argh!

What gets me is people who want to be spoon-fed.

Spoon-fed is a tailored answer so you contradict yourself.

Crude and rude? Believe me, you haven't even seen me be rude nor crude. This site is about helping programmers (beginner and experienced alike) and instead the 'experienced' members are pissing and moaning over something utterly pointless. You don't like beginners being spoon-fed or given the answer, that is fine, but it doesn't warrant a multi-page thread complaining about it. This is counter productive to beginners and is more of a put off than pulling others to the site.

Screw off? Not my type, allegedly male and IQ is apparently too low.

[naraku9333]

@BHXSpecter
Duoas helps a lot of people on this site, and he clearly puts a lot of work and thought into his posts. I think he has the right to voice his opinion.

You're being flat out insulting, and at your age you should know better.

[BHX]

Yes, all worked and thought out replies contradict themselves within two consecutive posts.

At my age, all I care about is helping beginners and I don't care how I come across to anyone else. With me you know what you get, I'll help no matter what not this bullshit of "I'll help you if you meet my requirements for how I think you should learn."

Though, you are right, at my age I should have known better to think this site would be any different from all the other sites I've been part of. Full of hypocrites that have rules for how they will help beginners. I'm through, I'll help beginners somewhere else.

[Duthomhas]

Yes... because you caught me with your misrepresented straw man false dichotomy version of my argument!

Too bad you can't accept that I have an opinion on how I want to spend my time volunteering to help others.

I'm wrong a lot. And I disagree with other members of the forum as often as I agree with them. But I'm not going to throw a tantrum and close my account over any of it.




I know I've been a little curmudgeonly lately. I don't mean to offend anyone. Wanna see why I'm annoyed?
http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/general/120266/

This happens a lot. Kind of makes me not want to try and help. I'll spend my time on someone who cares.
"Not homwork" my shiny metal...

[Disch]

BHX wrote:

This site is about helping programmers (beginner and experienced alike) and instead the 'experienced' members are pissing and moaning over something utterly pointless.

That about sums up the argument between Duoas and BHX.

Ironic that BHX would point this out and then ragequit over something he just admitted was 'utterly pointless'. But whatever. I guess that just happened. =(. It's unfortunate IMO, but BHX is a grown man and can make his own decisions.


Quite frankly I don't even understand what you guys were arguing about. Duoas can respond to questions the way he's going to respond to them, and BHX can respond to questions in his own way. As long as both parties are being respectful, I fail to see why either one of you should care. Especially to this extent.


The only thing that really bugs me is when I make an effort to give a thoughtful explanation to someone to try to guide them through the problem, then someone else swoops in behind me with a copy/paste-able post. That really makes me feel like my efforts were intentionally undermined/defeated by someone who is more interested in showing off ("hey, I know how to solve this problem... look at this!") than actually helping.

[Duthomhas]

+1

That's only a spot behind the first annoyance.

[Garion]

Does anybody know of a decent IRC channel for asking c++ questions?

I've tried a few of the ones I've found on google but they all seem empty.

[ResidentBiscuit]

Ha Garion I've often wondered the same thing. irc.freenode.net ##c++ is awful. Probably the most egotistical people I've had found on IRC. And I guess they have some beef with this website.

[Garion]

ahh, I'll give it a shot.

I don't normally get easily rattled on the internet. I've seen my fair share of trolling heh.

Although when I tried to connect to that one I keep getting sent to an overflow channel instead.

[ResidentBiscuit]

#chessplusplus :)