Do you think anybody can be a programmer and do you think it should be taught in elementary school?
In elementary school, no, I learned BASIC in 7th and 8th grade, but they mainly taught us to print things to the screen, mess with data, and then how to draw images to the screen. Though C++ is way more deep than BASIC was so I still stand by saying no to both questions. College and self-taught is the best bet IMHO.
@BHXSpecter
That doesn't explain why you don't think it should be taught in grade school.
That doesn't explain why you don't think it should be taught in grade school.
I think programming is a subject that will confuse most children. I mean, try teaching a kid the basics of dynamic memory allocation or the process of compiling and linking |
Dynamic memory allocation or process of compiling/linking is to programming like a telescope to astronomy. You don't need them to teach kids programming.
| naraku9333 wrote: |
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| Elementary school in the U.S. is kindergarten (usually 5 or 6 years old) to 12'th grade. |
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_school :
| Nevertheless, education has had a relatively consistent evolution throughout the United States. All states have historically made a distinction between two genres of K-12 education and three genres of K-12 school. The genres of education are primary and secondary; and the genres of school are elementary school, middle or junior high school, and high school (historically, "senior" high school to distinguish it from the junior school). |
which is more in line with my experience in the U.S. Also, I believe more typical ages for kindergarten entry are 4-5. Generally elementary school is k-5th, middleschool is 6th-8th and high school is 9th through 12th, although the exact grades tend to vary according to location. Some elementary schools go up to 6th grade (as the one I attended did.) When I attended junior high it was 7th and 8th grade (and some go up to 9th.)
@cire
You are absolutely correct, I need to pay more attention to what I'm writing. It was k-6th for me as well but was changed to k-5th after I started 9th grade (we had a school for 10th grade that became the 9th grade center and the junior highs became middle schools).
You are absolutely correct, I need to pay more attention to what I'm writing. It was k-6th for me as well but was changed to k-5th after I started 9th grade (we had a school for 10th grade that became the 9th grade center and the junior highs became middle schools).
closed account (zb0S216C)
| rapidcoder wrote: |
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| "You don't need them to teach kids programming." |
Then teach them a damn scripting language.
| naraku9333 wrote: |
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| "I don't think anyone suggested teaching grade schoolers C or C++." |
Who said anything about C/C++? DMA exists in most mainstream languages and linking exists in most -- if not all -- compiled languages.
If a child wants to learn a programming language, then let them start programming when they feel motivated to learn -- pushing programming lessons into a child's daily schooling routine might discourage them. The whole idea is ridiculous.
Wazzak
Programming is a trade like any other. You don't have kids doing automotive or HVAC or roofing or any other trade really. Some (if not most) high schools offer part time trade school where kids can go and learn a trade while still in high school. Maybe have something like that for programming.
If programming was just a trade I don't think there would be as many hobbyists as there are. It also wouldn't and shouldn't be taught to them as a trade but as a tool to learn how to solve problems logically. I think people are seriously underestimating the abilities of young children.
The reason there are so many hobbyists is because you can just easily get into it. Unlike other mainstream trades where you can't just start whenever you feel like it. I don't think it should be part of the curriculum in elementary school. Maybe in middle school and/or high school having some elective classes they can take would be cool. The interested students will take it and some will do well. The uninterested students just won't take it.
| Unlike other mainstream trades where you can't just start whenever you feel like it. |
| I don't think it should be part of the curriculum in elementary school. |
closed account (z05DSL3A)
Out of interest, what do they teach kids at this age (it was so long ago for some of us)?
| I disagree, you mention automotive and there are many hobbyist mechanics. |
The requirement of a vehicle of sorts is much greater than the requirement of a computer. Not to mention physical ability, the tools needed, new parts. The cost adds up much quicker.
| But why not? |
Look at it from the point of view of the uninterested people. I don't see it as essential to growth. This is why it should be offered at all middle/high schools. Teach kids logic and math instead. And actually do a good job of getting them interested in math. I think that would be much more beneficial then adding another skill to the curriculum. Just refine the current logic-based curriculum, then offer elective programming courses once the kids are ready.
| Out of interest, what do they teach kids at this age (it was so long ago for some of us)? |
At elementary school? They teach everything; History, Language arts, geography, reading, math, etc. All from one teacher (another issue with adding programming into the curriculum).
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I remember having trouble with fractions in 3rd grade.
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Dont you think programming can get kids interested in math and teach logic? Hopefully when you have kids you will see that their ability to learn is hindered most by how well they are taught. My son is 3 and a half years old and has been reading since he was 2 (counting came a little later), most kids his age are just starting. Of course I want to believe he is exceptionally brilliant but it's more likely due to the teaching and encouragement he receives. You wont know if they are ready to learn it until you try to teach them.
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| ResidentBiscuit wrote: |
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| Teach kids logic and math instead. And actually do a good job of getting them interested in math. I think that would be much more beneficial then adding another skill to the curriculum. Just refine the current logic-based curriculum, then offer elective programming courses once the kids are ready. |
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| naraku9333 wrote: |
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| @BHXSpecter That doesn't explain why you don't think it should be taught in grade school. |
I know.
closed account (3qX21hU5)
In the USA their is 3 "tiers" of schooling that is mandatory.
Elementary school - This is kindergarten through the 4th grade, If I remember correctly you start kindergarten around the age of 5? (I'm probably off a bit). This is where you learn basic math, history, geography, reading, writing, all the basics.
That is false, at least from every school I have heard of in the USA (Though I am sure there are some very rural parts that might have this).
Middle school - Which is 5th grade to 8th grade. You start to learn more advance subjects in math, science, biology, reading, writing, and all the basic courses.
High school - 9th grade to 12th grade. This is where you get into the advance subjects of math (Geometry, algebra, Trig, ect), Different languages like Spanish or french, chemistry, science, they also offer classes like woodworking, metal workings, other "trades". In my school they had a class that dealt with learning CAD.
In my opinion programming should be added at least as a class that you can choose to take. It will help teach students to think logically which is the main benefit of it, and lets face it more and more people are using computers these days and they should know how computers work.
Elementary school - This is kindergarten through the 4th grade, If I remember correctly you start kindergarten around the age of 5? (I'm probably off a bit). This is where you learn basic math, history, geography, reading, writing, all the basics.
| All from one teacher (another issue with adding programming into the curriculum). |
That is false, at least from every school I have heard of in the USA (Though I am sure there are some very rural parts that might have this).
Middle school - Which is 5th grade to 8th grade. You start to learn more advance subjects in math, science, biology, reading, writing, and all the basic courses.
High school - 9th grade to 12th grade. This is where you get into the advance subjects of math (Geometry, algebra, Trig, ect), Different languages like Spanish or french, chemistry, science, they also offer classes like woodworking, metal workings, other "trades". In my school they had a class that dealt with learning CAD.
In my opinion programming should be added at least as a class that you can choose to take. It will help teach students to think logically which is the main benefit of it, and lets face it more and more people are using computers these days and they should know how computers work.
But computer knowledge of people seem to be decreasing....People just know how to execute the programs that are on the desktop and extremely simple stuff....it's kinda sad really
closed account (3qX21hU5)
I would actually disagree with that. I tend to think children are knowing more and more about computers then they used to because they are growing up with them.
When I was growing up almost all of my friends had no Idea how to use the computers we had back then, the main reason was because they weren't as common in homes as they are today. But now you would be hard pressed to find a 12 year old or around that age that doesn't know how to use a computer, because almost every household has at least one.
When I was growing up almost all of my friends had no Idea how to use the computers we had back then, the main reason was because they weren't as common in homes as they are today. But now you would be hard pressed to find a 12 year old or around that age that doesn't know how to use a computer, because almost every household has at least one.
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| That is false, at least from every school I have heard of in the USA (Though I am sure there are some very rural parts that might have this). |
I guess that depends on what you call rural. My sister taught 3rd grade in an elementary school in Houston, TX (which you can hardly consider rural.) She was responsible for all subjects except P.E. which was covered by another teacher who only did P.E. classes (which is similar to what we experienced growing up in a town of 30k in central Illinois.)
http://careerthoughts.com/elementary-school-teacher-jobs
I think the largest barrier (at least in the U.S.) to introducing a subject at this level is the "No Child Left Behind" Act and the accompanying (required) testing. It is very hard to justify introducing another subject when it will contribute nothing to testing scores and students proverbial plates are already full of stuff that will.
closed account (3qX21hU5)
Hmm might be different up here in Minnesota then cause I remember all the schools around me were just like middleschool and highschool where we had multiple teachers for each subject.
That is another thing I don't agree with is the "No child left behind" crap. They are more concentrated on test scores of a child then actually teaching them stuff. But that is a whole different subject.
That is another thing I don't agree with is the "No child left behind" crap. They are more concentrated on test scores of a child then actually teaching them stuff. But that is a whole different subject.