Should I just jump straight in to C++?
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| xorebxebx wrote: |
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| a bunch of hateful, dishonest nonsense |
No, weenie, it is your responses that are untrustworthy, because all your arguments in all your posts in all the forums are hate for C++, using non-stop logical fallacies -- something any competent hacker can recognize. Your ad homenim gets boring, and it should be the first tip-off that what you are saying is bunkus.
You omit facts in order to bring false arguments. That ten years was spent modifying (ne, correcting and improving) the language. The current language is ISO/IEC 14882:2003, and complete language support in major vendors has always been secondary to need. That is, it is typically minor corner cases where the standard is not followed. Why? Because C++ is massively used by industry -- and industry needs are more important than radical language purity. "Business issues dominate technical issues" ( http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/big-picture.html ).
Further, no on has ever suggested (not even on this thread) that C++ had a simple LL(k<2) grammar... which kind of makes it hard for an IDE to do things like auto-complete without re-implementing the entire lexer-parser itself. Oh, difficult to debug STL? Heh, if you misunderstand what the thing is. Templates, mind you, are compiler-generated code -- making a debugger have to do extra work to track problems down... but those who use it everyday don't seem to have that much difficulty.
Java has enough design flaw to leave it at that. That it doesn't suffer the same flaws or problems as C++ means nothing in arguments against C++. Further, the language's type-system does not figure into any reasonable argument -- particularly as "statically-typed" is a fairly broad subclass.
So then, what exactly is your problem? You obviously hate C++. You appear to hate us. Why do you keep spending time here? Since you are clearly a high-level, high-paid programmer in some successful company, maybe you just find some sick pleasure in derailing a simple thread and making a hostile environment for new posters attempting to learn a programming language?
closed account (EzwRko23)
I don't have any problems. I just don't want that you lie to noobs coming here that C++ is a simple language. Just it and nothing more.
Simply in order to understand the code written by other fellows on the team. Making a project with bunch of programmers, where everyone knows a 20% subset of the language, usually ends with a disaster.
Yep, especially the impossibility to directly port a VC++ project of a reasonable size to GCC is a minor issue...
I don't see why a programmer should be specifically interested in mastering a language |
Simply in order to understand the code written by other fellows on the team. Making a project with bunch of programmers, where everyone knows a 20% subset of the language, usually ends with a disaster.
That is, it is typically minor corner cases where the standard is not followed |
Yep, especially the impossibility to directly port a VC++ project of a reasonable size to GCC is a minor issue...
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@ xorebxebx
C++ is simple. a bunch of simple keywords (you don't even need to know all of them to program successfully) and some simple rules to follow. The code is mostly relatively easy to read (if you don't mess the format (one simple rule)).
It's like chess: the rules are simple but the game is complicated. Latter applies to each language. But in C++ you don't have artificial limits.
C++ is simple. a bunch of simple keywords (you don't even need to know all of them to program successfully) and some simple rules to follow. The code is mostly relatively easy to read (if you don't mess the format (one simple rule)).
It's like chess: the rules are simple but the game is complicated. Latter applies to each language. But in C++ you don't have artificial limits.
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For C++ newbie, I would strongly recommend Stanley Lippman C++ Primer. It is a very good read and cover a lot of ground.
As for C++ STL, I still have not found a good introductory book. I learn C++ STL purely from Internet C++ web-sites.
As for C++ STL, I still have not found a good introductory book. I learn C++ STL purely from Internet C++ web-sites.
Just go for it man the beginnings are simple. I'm a beginning computer science major right now and I haven't had that much difficulty with it. It's like riding a bike; to get up and going is kind of easy and doesn't take too much practice, but if you were to try and be a professional bmx rider well that would take years of hard practice and great talent.
closed account (EzwRko23)
It's like chess: the rules are simple but the game is complicated. |
No. LISP is like chess. Scala is like football (much more spectacular than chess). C++ is like MMORPG. :D
What experienced programmers say about C++ (http://therighttool.hammerprinciple.com/items/c-2):
1. This language is large
2. This language makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot
3. There is a lot of accidental complexity when writing code in this language
4. This language is unusually bad for beginners
5. This language has many features which feel "tacked on"
6. I use many applications written in this language
7. I use a lot of code written in this language which I really don't want to have to make changes to
8. It is too easy to write code in this language that looks like it does one thing but actually does something else
9. This language is suitable for real-time applications
10. Writing code in this language is a lot of work
What they say about C++ is NOT TRUE:
1. This language is minimal
2. This language would be good for teaching children to write software
3. This language has a very coherent design
4. This language is good for beginners
5. This language is built on a small core of orthogonal features
So, if the programmers who program it don't say it is small and simple, it is probably not small and simple.
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| Based on responses from 1154 people, we've built up the following picture of how well "This language is large" describes different items |
http://therighttool.hammerprinciple.com/statements/this-language-is-large
Basing on ~1000 people doesn't make a survey any accurate
And it doesn't say who those people are
2. based on 831 people
3. 1451
4. 1383
5. 1139
6. 1346
7. 101 <- wtf?
8. 1105
9. 1166
10. 1524
Ranked low in:
1. 1159
2. 381 ( of 381 peope, many don't say that C++ would be good for children )
3. 1190
4. 1349
5. 1135
@xorebxebx
Can you think of any reason at all why someone might want to use C++ given a choice?
Can you think of any reason at all why someone might want to use C++ given a choice?
closed account (EzwRko23)
Basing on ~1000 people doesn't make a survey any accurate |
A survey of 1000 people is enough to give a maximum error of 3 p.p. (in the middle of the range).
Error near the ends of the scale (e.g. top 10 or bottom 10) is much smaller. Sample of size 1000 is a de facto standard in any statistical research.
Can you think of any reason at all why someone might want to use C++ given a choice? |
Lack of choice? Well, this is rare, but it may actually happen that some library/framework exists only for C++ and we are forced to use it. This is the situation in games (especially console ones), when the only vendor supported toolkits are almost only for C++. Another reason is legacy software.
Other than that, no, there are probably none. Any software that can be created in C++, can be created faster and better with { some HLL and C }.
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| xorebxebx wrote: |
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| Other than that, no, there are none. Any software that can be created in C++, can be created faster and better with { C + some HLL }. |
So, basically, you are a troll. Right?
I wasn't going to respond to this, but since yung'uns who read here might not know better:
You don't know squat about statistics or sampling. If you did, you wouldn't have posted that site to begin with...
But since you are now lecturing about "de facto standard"s, other impressionable young minds reading this drivel ought to know you are full of it.
Who's lying now, creep?
Go away.
| blah blah blah about de facto statistical research |
But since you are now lecturing about "de facto standard"s, other impressionable young minds reading this drivel ought to know you are full of it.
Who's lying now, creep?
Go away.
closed account (EzwRko23)
You don't know squat about statistics or sampling. |
[trollmode]
And you don't know squat about statistics, sampling and programming.
So who's lying now, creep? Go away, troll.
[/trollmode]
@Galik:
Please list some important features that C++ has, that are not available in { C + HLL } e.g. { C + Scala }.
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*yawn* Why did the admins ever permit this troll to post ~400 times, let alone once after he was banned the first time?
It's also obvious he has no knowledge of statistics, else he would have recognized the potential sampling bias, and tried to eliminate our doubts about the inexistence of said bias right away.
...Or maybe he did recognize it,and that's why he didn't post his source: because he knew it was biased. Either way, he loses.
EDIT: He did post the source. Oops.
I'm bored.
-Albatross
It's also obvious he has no knowledge of statistics, else he would have recognized the potential sampling bias, and tried to eliminate our doubts about the inexistence of said bias right away.
...Or maybe he did recognize it,
EDIT: He did post the source. Oops.
I'm bored.
-Albatross
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| xorebxebx wrote: |
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| Please list some important features that C++ has, that are not available in { C + HLL } e.g. { C + Scala }. |
I am not interested in debating languages with you. I simply wanted to establish that you never see C++ as a language of choice. You have no business here except to cause argument after argument over why your favourite language(s) are better than the one we come to help learners get to grips with. It wouldn't be half so bad if you didn't talk complete rubbish. But you do and you seem to think you're clever for it.
Look, you have a serious attitude problem. Why don't you go join a Scala forum and try to help someone rather than inflicting your personality defects on people who actually want to learn something?
| Duoas wrote: |
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| But since you are now lecturing about "de facto standard"s, other impressionable young minds reading this drivel ought to know you are full of it. |
Just for the record, I support this statement. I've been trying to avoid getting into these arguments lately but it needs to be said. I've noticed that some of the more credible users avoid these threads like the plague.
Users in-the-know see right through ridiculous, unfounded claims (independent of who has posted them); such trolling does not go unnoticed.
closed account (EzwRko23)
Why did the admins ever permit this troll to post ~400 times, let alone once after he was banned the first time? |
Because, except "trolling", he helps some newbies with their C++ problems, too?
It's also obvious he has no knowledge of statistics, else he would have recognized the potential sampling bias, and tried to eliminate our doubts about the inexistence of said bias right away. |
Giving a proof is a duty of someone who claims some phenomenon exists. If you think the survey is biased, you should give reasons for it. Saying it is based on only 1000 votes is not enough.
Why would a public internet survey be biased towards/against some programming language?
People who answer it (and there were more than 4000 for some of the questions) don't have any interest to favour one language over another. The survey simply reflects that most programmers don't like programming in C++ and find it a complex language. You may not agree. But you won't change facts. Go to any general programming forum (not naming itself a C++ forum) or general discussion site and ask people in there what they think about complexity of C++. You will get answers very similar to that survey.
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| Duoas wrote: |
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| So then, what exactly is your problem? You obviously hate C++. You appear to hate us. Why do you keep spending time here? |
This.
Trolls be trollin.
Why can not come "controversial"?
What he asks one of the C + + ..
Someone will say it best.
some people say that bad
Of course,
Whether we have information that beginners will be opposing ideas
The man does not say I hate language.his language is not easy as you say you said.
not at all opposed to the idea that you want.
Some friends got bored he says.
this post will not look tired ends.
My idea:
C + + language is a difficult language, but very enjoyable
No need to fear.We love C ++. :):)
What he asks one of the C + + ..
Someone will say it best.
some people say that bad
Of course,
Whether we have information that beginners will be opposing ideas
The man does not say I hate language.his language is not easy as you say you said.
not at all opposed to the idea that you want.
Some friends got bored he says.
this post will not look tired ends.
My idea:
C + + language is a difficult language, but very enjoyable
No need to fear.We love C ++. :):)
If it weren't for my own bad experiences using c++ I'd say that I'm too much of a beginner to comment on this topic. But I have to admit I have become a skeptic about the usefulness of c++ myself. But its the only language I know well (enough to program in), and don't know what other options are available, and really don't want to waste my time learning a new language that turns out to be just as bad as c++.
@albatross: I think its because xorebox is part of a conspiracy, in consortium with the administrators of cplusplus.com to purposely inundate the site with false information. In the event that a user such as myself were to ever try to switch to another language, it could very well be expected that those users would pick either Erlang or Scala, and find them both to be as equally horendous as c++. Thereby causing much grief and sorrow and the users will "learn their lessons" so to speak, and never contemplate switching from c++ again.
All hail Emperor Stroustrup!
| *yawn* Why did the admins ever permit this troll to post ~400 times, let alone once after he was banned the first time? |
@albatross: I think its because xorebox is part of a conspiracy, in consortium with the administrators of cplusplus.com to purposely inundate the site with false information. In the event that a user such as myself were to ever try to switch to another language, it could very well be expected that those users would pick either Erlang or Scala, and find them both to be as equally horendous as c++. Thereby causing much grief and sorrow and the users will "learn their lessons" so to speak, and never contemplate switching from c++ again.
All hail Emperor Stroustrup!
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