From Beginner to Expert
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Having an anti-anti-* attitude is a good thing.
I can only answer for myself, but that's not the reason of my heated reply. Stupid religious sentences like "X is evil" make my blood boil. If you want to argue, provide intelligent reasons, not cliched anti-propaganda everyone here has already heard a thousand times. Every time I hear something like this I think "Yeah, okay, Windoze, Winblows, M$, uh-huh, very funny. Do you have anything intelligent to say or I can just go ahead and ignore you?" If you see a pro-MS tendency here, it's because their platforms are the most often targets of people who should supposedly know better. Smart people like me, who talk loudly in restaurants, follow the philosophy of "all software sucks, all hardware sucks, use the one that hurts the least" and are uninterested in anything else. I haven't seen a similar pragmatic reasoning on any religious zealot
That's the worst example I have seen in my whole life. Seriously. The. Single. Worst.
Barring some ridiculous clause in the EULA (assuming there's one), yes, I would use it. I mean, come on. The best compiler in the world?
By the way, did you notice that by using your example you a) realized Godwin's Law (thus losing whatever position you were trying to defend) and b) unintentionally (?) compared Microsoft to the Nazi regime? Maybe I'm out of touch, but I haven't seen Microsoft trying to annex Poland or taking steps to make the US Judenfrei.
Damn those evil corporations, trying to make a profit and give work to thousands of employees, and damn their satanic CEOs donating millions to charity.
Really? What if right now I inserted out of fucking nowhere a long speech about why you need to convert to my religion to attain salvation. Sure, it's completely irrelevant, annoying and full of stuff all of humanity has already heard more times than can collectively count, but hey, we're talking about your immortal soul here. Or at least we are, now, and I'll be literally damned if I'm going to allow any other topic of discussion.
Yes. Yes, it is. We were perfectly fine with our permissive licences and public domain before this copyleft bullshit and viral licences came into being. Feel free to not contradict me, as it'll be a fruitless discussion.
EDIT: Thank god. Picking apart poorly formed arguments was getting tiresome.
| It seems that completely unintentionally I've kind of called anyone who uses Visual Studio or other Microsoft products a slave.If that's what I did, then I sincerely apologise. That wasn't even close to what I wanted to say.And because a lot of people do use Microsoft compilers, IDEs, etc, of course they where insulted. |
| OK.You just want tools.You don't care who made them.Right?? So if Hitler would still be alive and he made the world's greatest C++ compiler, that made incredibly fast programs and very small and supports all of the C++ features, anyway, the best compiler in the world, and he would offer it as freeware even for commercial use you would use it.Right? I'm more than shore that you would choose a different compiler, even if it's not as good, because Hitler was a very bad person.And even thinking of him would discust you. |
Barring some ridiculous clause in the EULA (assuming there's one), yes, I would use it. I mean, come on. The best compiler in the world?
By the way, did you notice that by using your example you a) realized Godwin's Law (thus losing whatever position you were trying to defend) and b) unintentionally (?) compared Microsoft to the Nazi regime? Maybe I'm out of touch, but I haven't seen Microsoft trying to annex Poland or taking steps to make the US Judenfrei.
| But it seems that when it comes to Microsoft, which is evil too |
| Doing the wright thing is never stupid.At least if the definition of wright hasn't changed. |
| That's one of the biggest scams in the world!! |
EDIT: Thank god. Picking apart poorly formed arguments was getting tiresome.
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That's the worst example I have seen in my whole life. Seriously. The. Single. Worst. Barring some ridiculous clause in the EULA (assuming there's one), yes, I would use it. I mean, come on. The best compiler in the world? |
Did I say that Microsoft is as bad as Hitler???Only a fool would understand that that's what I said.I only said that the level of discust is very similar.Example:
If you burn yourself and if you get bitten by a snake, even if the venom is way more painfull, in your mind you won't see a big difference.That's because the human body cand only support a certain level of pain.Beyond that level, you can't make out the diference, even if there is a clear one.
The same with discust.There is a certain level of discust, that if surpassed, you can't say wich one discusts you more.
So please, don't acuse me of saying that Microsoft is as bad as Hitler.That's just sick.
And, besides, you admitted that you wouldn't use that compiler anyway.
It seems that some people here only want one opinion, and that opinion must be everybody's opinion.How is that freedom??
Didn't I just said that you are FREE to do what you want??
I thought there where no hard feelings.Honestly.Why do I have to change my mind just because you say so??Didn't we agree that I only gave an advice????
I am as free as you are.Why not keep it that way??
I thought the problem was solved.Why the vulgar words???
I hope that this setles it.Either I didn't make myself clear, or I don't know, somethings was wrong.
| Did I say that Microsoft is as bad as Hitler? |
| And, besides, you admitted that you wouldn't use that compiler anyway. |
| Barring some ridiculous clause in the EULA (assuming there's one), yes, I would use it. I mean, come on. The best compiler in the world? |
Return 0:
| If that was the case, I would still use the Visual Reich C++ IDE/Compiler AND use the deutschland API if it got the job done!!! |
| It seems that some people here only want one opinion, and that opinion must be everybody's opinion.How is that freedom?? |
Notice, for example, that Duoas is even more critic of george<some number>, as every time he opens his mouth is to promote some unportable Microsoft solution, regardless of what it is OP asked.
Every time you say "X is evil", or "don't use X because Y is evil" you're just asking for trouble and it could even be considered trolling.
As another example, jsmith is a Linux supporter, but you never hear him going around saying "LOLZ WINDBLOWS SUXXORZ USE LINUX". That's because he's smart and knows that he'd be doing more harm than good.
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closed account (S6k9GNh0)
Just to throw this out here, professionals or "gurus" I've come to learn are NOT always the best choice to learn from. Some of the so called pros, have come to learn bad habits and tendencies and they don't even care if they are right and wrong. But when it comes to teaching or giving advice, that's all they'll blurt out they're big mouth.
As for Microsoft discussion here, it's Microsoft's American right to choose commercial production of there applications. They're products do not enslave you at all as it's your choice to use them. If people don't want to take maybe 3 hours out of they're day to understand why they are choosing Microsoft Windows for $160, over a free, open source operating system that's more stable and in my opinion more good lookin' called Linux that can get the job done just as effecient for searching the web for they're almost next to 0 needs, then so be it. If they want people to pay for they're awesome compiler, then so be it. Microsoft can do this because they always have something the other doesn't. Also:
@ andrei c:
No it doesn't. You can get an executable preconfigured with the most common of compilers, but the normal release of Code::Blocks has no compiler with it...:'P
NOTE: If I misplaced or misunderstood the topic at discussion, forgive me. This was kinda mumbo jumboed.
As for Microsoft discussion here, it's Microsoft's American right to choose commercial production of there applications. They're products do not enslave you at all as it's your choice to use them. If people don't want to take maybe 3 hours out of they're day to understand why they are choosing Microsoft Windows for $160, over a free, open source operating system that's more stable and in my opinion more good lookin' called Linux that can get the job done just as effecient for searching the web for they're almost next to 0 needs, then so be it. If they want people to pay for they're awesome compiler, then so be it. Microsoft can do this because they always have something the other doesn't. Also:
@ andrei c:
But we where talking about IDEs.An IDE has some kind of fancy text editor and comes, as far as I know, with a least one compiler.Code Blocks comes by default whit GCCNo it doesn't. You can get an executable preconfigured with the most common of compilers, but the normal release of Code::Blocks has no compiler with it...:'P
NOTE: If I misplaced or misunderstood the topic at discussion, forgive me. This was kinda mumbo jumboed.
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Oh, I just thought of a perfect example.
Hans Reiser is the designer of reiserFS (duh). In 2008, he was found guilty of strangling his wife, Nina, in 2006. He later confessed having done it.
Does this fact make reiserFS a less useful file system?
Hans Reiser is the designer of reiserFS (duh). In 2008, he was found guilty of strangling his wife, Nina, in 2006. He later confessed having done it.
Does this fact make reiserFS a less useful file system?
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Did I say that Microsoft is as bad as Hitler? Your post suggests you compared the two. You can't say that you didn't, now. Too late. You could have said anything, but chose the Nazis and lost. |
Actually I've only compared the FEELINGS that they gave you, not the actult things themselves.I'm not a complete idiot.I was very carefull not to insult certain people, actually all the people, whit such comparisons.
Again, this is what I said:
OK.You just want tools.You don't care who made them.Right?? So if Hitler would still be alive and he made the world's greatest C++ compiler, that made incredibly fast programs and very small and supports all of the C++ features, anyway, the best compiler in the world, and he would offer it as freeware even for commercial use you would use it.Right? I'm more than shore that you would choose a different compiler, even if it's not as good, because Hitler was a very bad person.And even thinking of him would discust you. |
Again, I only compared what kind of feelings both give you, not Microsoft and Hitler.That's stupid.
Even more, I've tried to explain that humans have limitations, and when they receive inputs besides those limits, it's hard to tell which input is the strongest.
Does Microsoft even discusts me as much as Hitler??
No.Of course not.
If someone wants to make me look like a person who is offensive of certain people, then good luck.But what I said proves that I didn't even compare the 2, I only said that there are both repulsive.
Did I say that there are both AS repulsive???
Well, this is what I said:
But try to understand me, that as you feel about Hitler, I feel the same way abou Microsoft. |
It seems that I kind of said it, but I didn't mean by quantity, as in Microsoft is as repulsive as Hitler.Unfortunately, I used the word AS, maybe I should have used LIKE.But then there would still be people who will say that I still meant as repulsive as in quantity.Which is not true.So no matter the words, I guess I would still have been accused of being offensive.
If I was offensive, then I apologise.
But I'm shore you can agree that not in m y wildest dreams have I compared Microsoft with Hitler.That shore wasn't my intention.
And, besides, you admitted that you wouldn't use that compiler anyway. Did you even read my post at all? |
Yup, i understood wrong.I read it, but I thought you said you wouldn't use it.I guess that was more of a joke from you.Sorry.
As another example, jsmith is a Linux supporter, but you never hear him going around saying "LOLZ WINDBLOWS SUXXORZ USE LINUX". That's because he's smart and knows that he'd be doing more harm than good. |
Well, it's hard to say.He did a bad thing, but Microsoft's bad things affect more than one person.
If I had I choice I guess I wouldn't use it.Too bad that such a thing hapened.
I never said about Linux anything, nor about the quality of Microsoft products.
Is that bad to have ideals and to try to not use products of certain companies that do bad things??
For example, I also boicot Procter and Gamble for testing on animals.Is that bad??Or what about Nike,Puma, Adidas which make hundreds of millions of dollars every ear, yet the people who work in the sweatshops that produce their close are very poor.Is that bad to not buy from them???To force them to change???
If we don't boicot such companies, they will never change.
But still, try to understand that I didn't order anyone to not use Microsoft products.Like I said, people are free to do what they want.I only suggested.That's not an order.
I am glad that no more insults where used, and in the end we can have a civilized discusion.
And from now on, seeing how morals over qaulity is not welcomed here, I will only promote cross-platform libraries as giving the chance to make programs for more than one platform, not as in giving you the chance to escape certain monopol.Even if that's true too.
So I help that this settles it and there are no more hard feelings.I never haved anything against anyone from this forum, just againts Microsoft.
As for Microsoft discussion here, it's Microsoft's American right to choose commercial production of there applications. |
Well, I have nothing against commercial software, as long as when it is neccesary there are educational versions available, so people wouldn't be forced to pirate it.Such as for mechanical CAD which you need to get a job.
Actually, I think that commercial software is good int the case above, because it gives people jobs and produces profit.Profit which can be donated.That's good.
But I was talking about how Microsoft obtained that profit, true threats, ilegal practices, so on.Don't you remember that case where Microsoft was found guilty and the judge wanted to dismantle the company??But then he changed his mind.Microsoft hasn't changed since.
If you have moral objections to paying money for Microsoft products, don't buy them. Either:
a) don't use them at all
b) pirate them
It does not help Microsoft in any way if you don't use their product (or don't pay them for using it). Given as how there are free versions of VS available, you don't even need to resort to piracy anymore.
As it stands the only [valid] reason for someone not to use an IDE they have access to is if they don't like the program... moral objections and money restraints notwithstanding. I have been around many "MS is the devil" people in my days, and they seldom seem to point out flaws in the IDE itself, but rather insist on going on about how MS is dominating the world and yadda yadda (ie: totally irrelevent topics as to whether or not the IDE is of value).
One of the people I know online is a very smart guy, and I have a lot of respect for him... but he gets blinded by "MS is the devil" crap. Refuses to acknowledge valid strong points of MS products, takes potshots, exaggerates flaws, etc. About the only thing he doesn't do is the "Windoze" or "M$" nonsense. While this guy is very knowledgable in a lot of stuff, and he's helped me out a whole lot in the past, sometimes it's really hard to give anything he says any weight because he flies off the deep end. I see that happening here.
I've used MSVS. As far as Windows development goes, I have yet to see anything that rivals it in terms of ease of use, debugging capabilities, etc. Flame MS all you like, but until you can offer an alternative IDE that does what VS can do as well as VS can do it, this point remains valid.
(Yes I'm aware there are alternative IDEs such as Dev-C++ and Code::Blocks -- in fact I'm using C::B now on Linux. While they are certainly nice, they simply do not stack up to VS, imo)
a) don't use them at all
b) pirate them
It does not help Microsoft in any way if you don't use their product (or don't pay them for using it). Given as how there are free versions of VS available, you don't even need to resort to piracy anymore.
As it stands the only [valid] reason for someone not to use an IDE they have access to is if they don't like the program... moral objections and money restraints notwithstanding. I have been around many "MS is the devil" people in my days, and they seldom seem to point out flaws in the IDE itself, but rather insist on going on about how MS is dominating the world and yadda yadda (ie: totally irrelevent topics as to whether or not the IDE is of value).
One of the people I know online is a very smart guy, and I have a lot of respect for him... but he gets blinded by "MS is the devil" crap. Refuses to acknowledge valid strong points of MS products, takes potshots, exaggerates flaws, etc. About the only thing he doesn't do is the "Windoze" or "M$" nonsense. While this guy is very knowledgable in a lot of stuff, and he's helped me out a whole lot in the past, sometimes it's really hard to give anything he says any weight because he flies off the deep end. I see that happening here.
I've used MSVS. As far as Windows development goes, I have yet to see anything that rivals it in terms of ease of use, debugging capabilities, etc. Flame MS all you like, but until you can offer an alternative IDE that does what VS can do as well as VS can do it, this point remains valid.
(Yes I'm aware there are alternative IDEs such as Dev-C++ and Code::Blocks -- in fact I'm using C::B now on Linux. While they are certainly nice, they simply do not stack up to VS, imo)
I'm not even going to bother reading the first half.
If you want to avoid confusion, don't mention the Nazis at all. Three different people interpreted what you said as comparing Microsoft to the Nazis.
Comparing X to the Nazis is not offensive, it's an indication of a bad argument, and performing such a comparison, thanks to Godwin's Law, means you lose your position from lack of credibility.
Those are the rules of the game. No one forces you to play, but you are forced to know them and follow them.
Remember my example about trying to convert you all? The problem here is not why you choose the tools you choose, but that you come in here preaching BS no one is interested in listening to.
If you want to recommend something -- be it for that something's technical merits or otherwise -- then just do it, and keep the sermon to yourself. Remember that by default, people don't care and don't want to listen to it.
But if you just want to boycott someone, I'm sure there are places where you can do it (the Internet is big, after all). This isn't one of them.
If you want to avoid confusion, don't mention the Nazis at all. Three different people interpreted what you said as comparing Microsoft to the Nazis.
Comparing X to the Nazis is not offensive, it's an indication of a bad argument, and performing such a comparison, thanks to Godwin's Law, means you lose your position from lack of credibility.
Those are the rules of the game. No one forces you to play, but you are forced to know them and follow them.
| Is that bad to have ideals and to try to not use products of certain companies that do bad things?? |
| If you need MFC, NET and other of that monopolistic stuff, then yes, Visual Studio is the best. |
| Call it vendor lock-in, call it monopol, it's still the same expression for slavery. |
But if you just want to boycott someone, I'm sure there are places where you can do it (the Internet is big, after all). This isn't one of them.
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Hy Helios!Thanks for using such a decent tone now.
But that wasn't what I was doing.It was only giving an advice, an opinion.Remember that I talked about that several posts ago.Like, indirectly or not, you are giving people advice or telling them that they should use VC++ on Windows because it's the best.Fair enough.It may have the best debugger.
But still it is an advice, just like I gave one.I'm not trying to convert anyone.No one is forced to use a certain program.At least not by me.
As for what people interpreted, I am sorry that they got it wrong.Next time I'll just say a very bad person instead of dictator's names to avoid confusion.Guess it's my fault too.
:)
I kind of did that, but then certain people started cursing and insulting.I recommended something for "otherwise" and I also unrecommended something for "otherwise".
As for those CEOs that donate and Microsoft creating jobs, you forget that Microsoft also distroid a lot of jobs thru unfair practices.And the millions of dollars of donations??Those companies that went bankrupt could have done it too.
Millions of dollars of donations??That's a joke compared to the BILLIONS of dollars of profit they make every year.And like I said, the companies that went bankrupt because of some of Microsoft's practices could have donated that money.
As you can see Helios, there a lot of reasons for which people don't like Microsoft.Please don't blame me.
I respect you and admire you for being able to look over these things and just do your thing, making programs that is.Using tools by their quality, not by their origin.
I wish I could compile something without thinking that the GCC compiler is promoted by it's creators as being free even if it's not.But sometimes I can't.If I was a great programmer I would make such a compiler myself, and release it under the BSD or something, but I'm not.
Well, Helios and all of you, good luck whit whatever programs you are doing and may you have fun whit them.
Remember my example about trying to convert you all? The problem here is not why you choose the tools you choose, but that you come in here preaching BS no one is interested in listening to. |
But that wasn't what I was doing.It was only giving an advice, an opinion.Remember that I talked about that several posts ago.Like, indirectly or not, you are giving people advice or telling them that they should use VC++ on Windows because it's the best.Fair enough.It may have the best debugger.
But still it is an advice, just like I gave one.I'm not trying to convert anyone.No one is forced to use a certain program.At least not by me.
As for what people interpreted, I am sorry that they got it wrong.Next time I'll just say a very bad person instead of dictator's names to avoid confusion.Guess it's my fault too.
If you want to recommend something -- be it for that something's technical merits or otherwise -- then just do it, |
:)
I kind of did that, but then certain people started cursing and insulting.I recommended something for "otherwise" and I also unrecommended something for "otherwise".
As for those CEOs that donate and Microsoft creating jobs, you forget that Microsoft also distroid a lot of jobs thru unfair practices.And the millions of dollars of donations??Those companies that went bankrupt could have done it too.
Millions of dollars of donations??That's a joke compared to the BILLIONS of dollars of profit they make every year.And like I said, the companies that went bankrupt because of some of Microsoft's practices could have donated that money.
As you can see Helios, there a lot of reasons for which people don't like Microsoft.Please don't blame me.
I respect you and admire you for being able to look over these things and just do your thing, making programs that is.Using tools by their quality, not by their origin.
I wish I could compile something without thinking that the GCC compiler is promoted by it's creators as being free even if it's not.But sometimes I can't.If I was a great programmer I would make such a compiler myself, and release it under the BSD or something, but I'm not.
Well, Helios and all of you, good luck whit whatever programs you are doing and may you have fun whit them.
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| Hy Helios!Thanks for using such a decent tone now. |
| But still it is an advice, just like I gave one.I'm not trying to convert anyone.No one is forced to use a certain program.At least not by me. |
| I kind of did that, but then certain people started cursing and insulting. |
| You: etc. monopoly etc. VC++ is only the best if you need the libraries. Me: It's not monopoly. VC++'s debugger is better than gdb. You: Hurr durr slavery. (Repeat the libraries bit.) Me: *Explains how any library and compiler can lock you in, and how it's your fault if you choose the wrong one* |
| As for those CEOs that donate and Microsoft creating jobs, you forget that Microsoft also distroid a lot of jobs thru unfair practices.And the millions of dollars of donations??Those companies that went bankrupt could have done it too. Millions of dollars of donations??That's a joke compared to the BILLIONS of dollars of profit they make every year.And like I said, the companies that went bankrupt because of some of Microsoft's practices could have donated that money. |
| Please don't blame me. |
Egh. I'm sick of this. I'm going to end it with a well-deserved Fuck You for making me waste all this time.
| I'm going to end it with a well-deserved Fuck You for making me waste all this time. |
OK, so you talk this vulgar all the time.Sorry for making you lower yourself so much that you must use such language.I guess some people are never satisfied and will always be mean.Even after all the posts, even if I never cursed you or insulted you, even after I was really nice whit you.
You just don't get tired do you? NO. ONE. CARES. |
If no one cares why such a language???
And why this:
Damn those evil corporations, trying to make a profit and give work to thousands of employees, and damn their satanic CEOs donating millions to charity. |
You do seem to care.It's just that you have such a vulgar language.I'm sorry that that's the way you talk.
Yes, it's very insulting to use such language, and yes, it's insulting to call someone stupid even if they are.
That's how I see it at least.
Well, helios, to bad that we have to say goodbye this way.I really am sorry.I thought that problems where solved.But I guess you're in a really angry stage and that's why you're talking like that.
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